Posted on 07/03/2003 11:25:31 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
Mankind is unable to make the slightest move towards Christ in his fallen condition without God first...
See, thats where Wesley gets into trouble. Nothing wrong with "Mankind is unable to make the slightest move towards Christ" where the trouble begins is with the word "first". "First" implies a "second", and when a "second" is in man's hands then what you are getting back to is the doctrine of a helpless God who pines away hoping and wishing that man would do something right.
All of this wishful thinking that man somehow is the ultimate authority, still is a anthropocentric religion that makes man sovereign in matters of salvation.
What is the ground and 'nature' (extent) of this Salvation?
?.....partial or total.....Salvation?
I thought you were joking. Salvation is either "total" or it isn't "salvation" . I would love to hear what distinguishes hypothetical "partial" salvation from "total". Is "partial" a salvation where God only teases someone? Otherwise, you got me here. (scratching head)
?.....What part of 'Salvation' is NOT a Gift???
?.....WHAT PART OF 'SALVATION' is NOT a Gift???
I have a feeling here that we probably don't agree on the properties of what constitutes a "gift". But I will make a feeble attempt trying to convey the extent and nature of this "gift".
First of all, salvation is never described as a gift. Rather Ephesians 2:8 says that "grace" and "faith" are gifts. John 4:10 says that "the living water" is a gift. Acts 8:20 imply that "power" was a gift. Romans 5 says that Christ's sacrificial death was a "gift". Hebrews 6:4, like 2 Cor 9:15 refer to a "gift" that is undefined. It could be the plan of salvation, forgiveness of sins, the enlightening, renewing and sanctifying influences or graces emenating from the Paraclete.
Salvation, is described in Hebrews 1:14 as something that is inherited. Christ also says that it is inherited in Matthew 25:34. Paul, in Romans 8:17; Galations 3:7,29; Titus 3:7 calls it an inheritance; and in Ephesians 3:6 says its a promise. James 2:5 calls salvation an inheritance.
I know thinking of Salvation as an inheritance will really booger up the soteriology of the Free Will Theorist, and undoubtably interesting redefinitions of "inheritance" will surely ensue. Sort of like the way the FWT completely redefines "election" to mean something akin to naming the winner of the horserace after the contestants cross the finish line.
So to answer your question, Salvation is something we inherit, not merit, nor seek after, nor have the opportunity to disavow. As kids of the King, we gladly receive all of the benefits of His Kingdom.
Matt 25:34 "Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Please note that inheritance is a result of the Father's blessing "from the foundation of the world" (or as others would say "eternity past"). "Blessings" have meaning, and are not something tossed out universally. So please, in the quest to justify FWT, don't conjure up some new defintion of "blessing" that profanes the whole idea just because God's Sovereignty repulses you.
I have a feeling here that we probably don't agree on the properties of what constitutes a "gift". But I will make a feeble attempt trying to convey the extent and nature of this "gift".
First of all, salvation is never described as a gift........
????......'First of all, (properties?...of) Salvation is never described as a gift.'
Romans 11:28-29
(Romans 10:17)
????......'First of all, (properties?...of) Salvation is never described as a gift.'
Romans 11:28-29
The Greek doesn't support Romans 11:29 "gifts" as being "salvation", if anything the "calling" refers to the previous passage's "election", and in any case, it is "irrevocable". (fits more in line with the inheritance theme)
Perhaps you can harmonize your claim that "salvation is a gift" with the Bible's claim that "salvation is an inheritance". I would be most interested in the results.
????......'First of all, (properties?...of) Salvation is never described as a gift.'
Romans 11:28-29
The Greek doesn't support Romans 11:29 "gifts" as being "salvation", if anything the "calling" refers to the previous passage's "election", and in any case, it is "irrevocable". (fits more in line with the inheritance theme) Perhaps you can harmonize your claim that "salvation is a gift" with the Bible's claim that "salvation is an inheritance". I would be most interested in the results.
Romans 11:28,28,28,......"Calling refers to,...THE GOSPEL.
Weren't we discussing "salvation"? Why change it to "the gospel"?
Romans 6:23?
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
:-)
First of all, salvation is never described as a gift........
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord
Maranatha!!
(Romans 10:17)
Your brother ev Christ Jesus Forever!!......
m
Amen!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.