Bishops warn Catholics about 'Left Behind' books ( Sunday Rapture Thread )

Chicago Sun-times ^ | June 6, 2003 | CATHLEEN FALSANI Religion Reporter

[findingtruth]

You decided that. That alone is your private interpretation. We all make that choice.

But then on the other hand, some of us try to ascertain if our private choice accords or does not accord with objective reality.

[findingtruth]

You decided that. That alone is your private interpretation. We all make that choice.

But then on the other hand, some of us try to ascertain if our private choice accords or does not accord with objective reality.

[ACAC]

Why am I not interested in facts just because I don't agree with you on every issue? I could accuse you of the same thing, but what would be the point?

[ACAC]

I think everyone tries to do that. We just seem to come to different conclusions.

[Gophack]

You're right, I shouldn't have been so harsh in my wording.

My point is that it's easy to say, "Believe whatever you want, it's your private interpretation that is important." I provided a link that backs up my argument that the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, catholic, Apostolic church that was founded by Jesus Christ and is protected from error in the matter of faith and morals by the Holy Spirit. You chose to fall back on, "Great for what you think, great for what I think, everyone's right because it's what you think that matters."

I do not intend to pick a fight. I'm sure that you are a good Christian who is trying to live your life the way you think Jesus would be proud of, same as me. But my point is you didn't dispute the facts in the article, simply that it was my opinion in which I am entitled. Yes. And you are entitled to yours. But if you take your faith seriously -- which I believe that you do -- wouldn't you want to research not only your faith more fully, but other faiths as well?

I have many good Protestant friends in many different denominations, from Lutheran to Episcopalian to Assemblies of God to Calvinists to just non-denominational Christians. I try and read up about their beliefs where they agree and disagree with my Church so that I can understand where they are coming from. I thought you might want to understand the Catholic Church's claim that it is, in fact, the church established by Jesus and here is the proof. You don't have to agree with it, but maybe you should understand where we are coming from.

I was listening to Catholic radio this afternoon. A former Protestant (Baptist) who was in Seminary studying to be ordained converted to Catholicism. While today's show was about the Primacy of Peter (he outlined -- Scripturally -- how Peter alone was given the keys to the kingdom of Heaven and how Jesus gave Peter His flock to shepherd, among other things). This guy (I can't remember his name) said the four primary things that convinced him that the Catholic Church was the one, True church, was the Primacy of Peter; sola scriptura (it's not in the bible); sola fide (only mentioned once in the bible, in James, "You are not saved by faith alone"); and the Eucharist.

I am not the best evangelist out there. I only try and explain to my good friends here on FR why I believe and why I have hope. I try to do it with love and charity, sometimes I fail and if I offended you I apologize.

God bless.

[ACAC]

I am not upset at you or anything. It was not that big of a deal. You will be happy to know that I watch EWTN from time to time. I am pretty sure the program you are refering to is "The Journey Home." I have seen that show often. I also like to watch the show where the priests answer the questions from the internet. I also try to learn all points of view.

[SMEDLEYBUTLER]

"And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Luke 1:43

[LS]

I'm sorry. I don't follow.

[LS]

Boy, you must go to special catechism classes run by the Jesuits to warp something like that around from what I said.

People make choices, and live (and die) by those choices. Sometimes the innocent die as a result of the choices by the guilty (was there not ONE righteous person in Jericho? not ONE innocent child?)

Indeed, because of Aiken's disobedience, his whole innocent family was killed.

When people make earthly decisions that are sinful, there is a price here on this earth, as well as in the next life.

[LS]

You don't need to provide any more. The ones you have provided make my case. "Suffer shame." Doesn't sound to me like torture.

Persecution? I can't find one instance prior to the last three days when Jesus was to be the Lamb of God where a person laid a HAND on Him . . . but He was persecuted (talked ill of, criticized, ridiculed) constantly. Your examples make my point. Thanks.

[LS]

I didn't say, or didn't mean to say, that every one of these "great escapes" was a portrait of the Rapture, only a model that God, one way or another, makes "the way of escape" for His faithful. I think any honest reading of Noah suggests that he was "taken out" of the flood. Now, you can say, "well, he "went through it." Fine. I think being above the waves is MORE symbolic of a rapture-type thing, but whatever.

Yes, the Israelites left AFTER the judgements, but they were still removed from the bondage of the oppresive Egyptian regime and they did not "plunder" Egypt: the Egyptians, on God's command, willingly gave them stuff to get the heck out! I think that is how it will be in the end times---whenever that is---that the evil ones will be pouring their wealth on the Church because times are so bad for them in many other ways (maybe illness, mental illness, I don't know).

However, it is interesting also (via your previous---or subsequent post/comment?) that when the Children of Israel left Egypt, they did so WHOLE and WELL. God did not bring them out sick and poor. Again, this tells me that God's best for us is not be be poor and "suffer" for Him, but to live, and to have life abundantly.

[LS]

Something else about this, though: Jesus healed EVERYONE who came to Him, but did not heal EVERYONE universally! We suspect (can't prove it, of course) that Jesus had passed the lame man at the gate Beautiful perhaps dozens of times in His ministry . . . yet never healed him. This is speculation, but if you look at Acts, where it says that when Peter went by (and by that time, the man had heard of the Resurrection, and the power of the Name of Jesus), THEN he seemed ready to receive, because he looked at them "expecting to receive something." Now, the implication is that maybe he expected to receive money, but I wonder if he didn't expect (with FAITH) to receive healing---but had not had faith for Jesus to heal him those other times.

Moreover, we see in the Gospels that Jesus could NOT heal people in His home town because of their unbelief. Obviously, He was willing to do all He could do (which was enough) be we have to be willing to do all WE can do.

[LS]

Nope. Hate to tell you this but Jesus could not heal people in Nazareth who didn't have faith. And God will not save you if you don't believe. He will not force Himself on you.

Oh, and something else God can't do. He can't lie. He has limited Himself by His own rulebook---if He didn't, He would be no better than you or me.

[Is2C]

"Suffer shame." Doesn't sound to me like torture.

I should have included the previous verse:

Acts 5:40-41
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
KJV

Acts 14:19

19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. KJV

Acts 16:22-25

22 And the multitude rose up together against them: and the magistrates rent off their clothes, and commanded to beat them.

23 And when they had laid many stripes upon them, they cast them into prison, charging the jailor to keep them safely:

24 Who, having received such a charge, thrust them into the inner prison, and made their feet fast in the stocks.

25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them. KJV

Acts 18:17-18

Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things.

18 And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, KJV

Acts 21:13

13 Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. KJV

Acts 21:30-32

30 And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut.

31 And as they went about to kill him, tidings came unto the chief captain of the band, that all Jerusalem was in an uproar.

32 Who immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down unto them: and when they saw the chief captain and the soldiers, they left beating of Paul KJV

Acts 21:35-36

35 When Paul reached the steps, the violence of the mob was so great he had to be carried by the soldiers. (from New International Version)

Acts 22:4

4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. KJV

Acts 23:12-15

12 And when it was day, certain of the Jews banded together, and bound themselves under a curse, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till they had killed Paul.

13 And they were more than forty which had made this conspiracy.

14 And they came to the chief priests and elders, and said, We have bound ourselves under a great curse, that we will eat nothing until we have slain Paul.

15 Now therefore ye with the council signify to the chief captain that he bring him down unto you to morrow, as though ye would inquire something more perfectly concerning him: and we, or ever he come near, are ready to kill him. KJV

Acts 24:27

27 But after two years Porcius Festus came into Felix' room: and Felix, willing to shew the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound. KJV

Acts 25:2-3

2 Then the high priest and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him,

3 And desired favour against him, that he would send for him to Jerusalem, laying wait in the way to kill him. KJV

These are only references to what Paul suffered. As referenced above (Acts 22), Paul imposed suffering on Christians for years before his conversion. All of the disciples suffered rather severe physical treatment and most were eventually martyred. The persecution of christians has been well documented throughout history and occurs rather savagely in many parts of the world today. Click here for details.

I in no way desire persecution but I fear many christians today are not prepared for any test of their faith that may require discomfort of any kind, verbal, physical, economic or otherwise. Christians are being taught that if you truely have faith and pray properly that Christ or God won't let anything bad happen to you. The bible actually teaches the opposite. The christian's reward is comfort and peace in heaven, not on earth. Post 141 documents that opinion.

On a personal note, I have 2 little girls that I would die for any day. Honestly, the hardest thing for me to deal with was not whether I would renounce my faith and deny Christ if my life were threatened but what I would do if the lives of my children or husband were threatened. That happens to christians in other countries almost daily. They watch as their loved ones are murdered for simply refusing to deny Christ with their mouth.

[LS]

All of these examples must be taken in the context of what Paul's faith (or the disciples' faith) was for deliverance. We have no record any time that any of them prayed for deliverance but still were beaten---but we do have records of Peter praying for release from prison, and he was released.

When Jesus said "I came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly," that did not refer to heaven. And I don't see torture as "life abundantly." So, sorry, I do believe that if you in fact listen to God, and look for His "way of escape" it is there for you. Most martyrs, however, as it says in Hebrews 11, did not choose to take the way of escape. If that's your choice, I can't help you. See you on the other side.

[MEGoody]

Too bad the Catholic bishops didn't warn the alter boys about horny priests.

[MEGoody]

"How could any other church claim to be the one true church, because no church but the Catholic Church claims to be 2,000 years old?"

Not quite true.

The various Orthodox churches claim to be 2,000 years old and believe the Catholics are 'protesters'.

Baptists (at least the independent Baptist church I attended) believe they began with John the Baptist.

[Gophack]

There is no line of succession between the Baptist church (any denomination) and the time of Jesus Christ.

With regards to the Orthodox churches, many of them are in full communion with Rome and recognize the Bishop of Rome as the leader of the Church. Those who don't broke away, not the Catholic Church, which has an UNBROKEN line of succession going back to St. Peter.

God bless.

[the-ironically-named-proverbs2]

"When Jesus said "I came that you might have life, and have it more abundantly," that did not refer to heaven."

just curious. In the following passage you believe that Jesus was speaking of our mortal lives in this current age?

John 10:7-11
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
(KJV)

[LS]

Absolutely. It makes no sense to think that Heaven would be anything but "abundant life," so that couldn't possibly be what He was referring to in the "abundant life" verse.

Moreover, I think this verse is often mistaken for referring to the afterlife. It does refer to salvation, but as it applies to life on this planet before we are taken to Heaven. This is apparent because He still refers to (10) The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: . . . .

The thief has no power in Heaven. Only on earth. God's "abundance," contrasted with the devil, is really meaningless if it is referring to Heaven, because there is no "stealing, killing, or destroying" in Heaven.