The Difference Between Good and Bad Music

Bible Believers.com ^ | Unknown | Alan Ives

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Well Bach introduced syncopation into the liturgy and utilized augmented 4ths and diminished 5ths (the devil's chords) as sustained chords in the liturgy rather than as mere passing intervals-- much to the chagrin of those stilted zealous religious music critics who even then thought they knew God's peculiar music taste.

i should be so demonic! BTW, a suspended 4th and suspended 2nd sounds absolutely unearthly on a 12 string guitar. It was as if Bach anticipated the guitar at times.

[P-Marlowe]

Actually a 12 string guitar is nothing more than a portable harpsichord with frets. I only wish that Bach had been around to experience what a synthesiser can do to his music. But I would supppose that Bach has experienced much greater things by now.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Marlowe, you are going to get the creative juices running. Not easy to do with my old calcified brain! (no Calvinist-calcified jokes, ok?) i wonder what would happen if i tuned well tempered instead of even temper? i'd have to play around with that idea a bit, assuming that it's possible to do so (frets, fixed intervals, remember?). Still, the intervals between strings could be changed...this merits some further thought. Thanks for the idea.

You know, if i could build a well tempered fret arrangement, that would be unique. Problem is i'd have to do it with an electric guitar. Easier to change necks!

[DoorGunner]

At any rate, it's a heck of a lot more intelligent than anything the entire musically-worthless decade of the 1950's had to offer, that's all I got to say.

I hold no particular brief for 50's music.

 

"...THE TASTE OF TABOO."

Gee whillikers... it's practically like reading Genesis 2:16-17, 3:1-7,

Actually, not very much, but I am kinda stupid; being unable to imagine the Word of God--

set to the blazing electronic tempo of German Industrial music...

Furthermore, even if some were so carnal as to do so, I think that no one would be able to hear it, as the Word of god. I think that they would only hear the "blazing electronic tempo" and screamed word-type sounds, and get the same message they would get from these lyrics (from the Paradise Now" album):

I am the god of hell f ire and I bring you:

Fire, I'll take you to burn.

Fire, I'll take you to learn.

 

I'll see you burn!

You fought hard and you saved and learned,

but all of it's going to burn.

And your mind, your tiny mind,

you know you've really been so blind.

Now 's your time burn your mind.

You're falling far too far behind.

Oh no, oh no, oh no, you gonna burn!

Fire, to destroy all you've done.

Fire, to end all you've become.

 

I'll feel you burn!

You've been living like a little girl,

in the middle of your little world.

And your mind, your tiny mind,

you know you've really been so blind.

Now 's your time burn your mind,

you're falling far too far behind.

http://lyricspost.com/view.php?id=20966121498&type=lyrics

 

 

But never mind, you don't even know the Albums in question, so I won't ask you to keep up.

That's true, I am not very sophisticated about this kind of music. I am not saying you can't listen to it, I just think that neither the music, itself, nor the lyrics, can possibly be edifying to the follower of Jesus.

From the album: paradise now

you sold your soul to a stranger

you confused life with danger

you made the wrong decision

forever being held in derision

 

from one extrem to another

not a moment left to recover

it will never let you go forever

flowing with the flow

 

your world revolves around me

your life's gyrating round me

your whole existence's a void

 

I'm gonna suck you in

I'm gonna spin you round

I'm gonna turn you up

I'm gonna spit you out

 

once inside you turn faceless

you become part of the vortex

it's like an eternal treadmill

that never comes to a standstill

 

and it is useless to resist

as the pressure will persist

it will never let you go forever

flowing with the flow

 

your plans dissolve without me

you lose your dreams inside me

your mind has been destroyed

 

I'm gonna suck you in

I'm gonna spin you round

I'm gonna turn you up

I'm gonna spit you out

 

this is the end of your world

everything has been upturned

submit yourself to new rules

get used to a set of new tool

 

http://lyricspost.com/view.php?id=20966121502&type=lyrics

 

From the album: paradise now

 

your life will be the mirror

that shows what you've become

the stage is set for trial

to show what you have done

 

your choice was to be rotten

so painful be the end

law of existence - revolving doors

comes the teeth of life's jaws

 

end of life - peace to the core

full circle - returns once more

 

this is not the end of it all

full circle returns once more

 

your fear will be your shadow

and life will take revenge

you had it all but went too far

realize the end is near

 

regrets come much too late

so fire will be your fate

law of existence - revolving doors

comes the teeth of life's jaws

 

end of life - peace to the core

full circle - returns once more

 

this is not the end of it all

full circle returns once more

 

remake, remodel - endless revisions

within the circle - a new one is born

you're not alone - there's more of the sane

wish the cycle - bred more of the same

http://lyricspost.com/view.php?id=20966121500&type=lyrics

DG

 

 

[dsc]

"It's much easier than that.
If it's my music,...it's good.
If it's their music,...it's bad."

Actually, I'm beginning to think there's a discoverable, objective standard.

[dsc]

"I really get irritated with these so called musicians that seem to be able to tell what kind of Music Jesus would like."

Do you think He would like music that appealed to the lust and violence within us?

[P-Marlowe]

I would suggest that if there is certain music that appeals to your lusts or makes you violent, then the problem, my dear dsc, lies with you and not with the music. It is the lyrics and/or what we think of when we hear certain tunes or certain types of music that is the problem.

Take "Bolero" by Ravel for example. Until the Movie "10" nobody ever thought of that piece of music as sensual or lustful, but mix it with a memory of a sex scene in a movie and suddenly it becomes a problem, doesn't it? If the director had chosen "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring" as the instrumental backgroud for the sex scene in "10" instead of "Bolero" then we'd all have that same polluted sense of lust when we heard that melody.

Seems to me that YOU have a problem with certain types of music. As a Musician, I recognize that music is neutral and that I can worship God using syncopation and dissonant chords just as easily as I can worship God using standard I-IV-V major chords with 4 part harmony.

I would suggest that as long as certain types of music appeal to lust and violence in YOU, that you avoid that type of music. I have NEVER heard a Christian Rock song that appealed to any lust or violence within me. I've heard some that I don't like, but for the most part I don't like those songs because they are just not professionally done or they are corny. Just because you have a problem with certain types of music is no reason to condemn those who don't. It's your problem. Not theirs.

[jboot]

This is the powerful truth of "leven."

True, but there are different flavors of leaven.

There's a lot of the leaven of the Pharisees on this thread. Matthew 16:6-12.

[HatSteel]

100% agreement. This discussion is idiotic. Your comment summarizes a devastating argument that properly places the origin of individual sin within the PERSON where the other side is arguing for sin WITHIN a neutral invention, a syncopated rhythm.

The first is biblical. The second is entirely speculative.

[dsc]

"I would suggest that if there is certain music that appeals to your lusts or makes you violent, then the problem, my dear dsc, lies with you and not with the music."

And you would be entirely mistaken.

"It is the lyrics and/or what we think of when we hear certain tunes or certain types of music that is the problem."

Lyrics can certainly be a problem. However, the effects of music and other sounds are far from neutral. Associations we may have with music can certainly influence our reaction to it, however, music goes to a level deeper than rational thought.

"Take "Bolero" by Ravel for example. Until the Movie "10" nobody ever thought of that piece of music as sensual or lustful, but mix it with a memory of a sex scene in a movie and suddenly it becomes a problem, doesn't it?"

You're conflating two separate issues. One is the pre-rational effect of the music itself; the other is the associations one has with a piece of music on a rational level. With regard to the Bolero, it could be that it was always sensual and you just never noticed it; or it could be that it is not sensual and it is only the association that makes it seem so. Your anecdote proves nothing either way.

"If the director had chosen "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring" as the instrumental backgroud for the sex scene in "10" instead of "Bolero" then we'd all have that same polluted sense of lust when we heard that melody."

I don't think so. One thing that suggests otherwise is this: the makers of the Leelee Sobieski version of Joan of Arc used a Charlotte Church rendition of sacred music as the background to a gory battle scene. From the first notes, I was strongly repelled by the grotesque inappropriateness of using that piece of music in that way, and although I have the video and have watched it maybe ten times, I have developed no association between that music and violence, or even the scenes of violence portrayed. I am still as repelled as I was the first time, if not more so.

Another is this: For a couple of years, a Japanese jeweler had a commercial that used Amazing Grace as its background, and I suffered no association of that music with materialism, greed, or even diamonds. The misuse of that music still offends me.

I don't think you could foster an association between lust and Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring even with the aversion therapy treatment from Clockwork Orange.

"Seems to me that YOU have a problem with certain types of music."

I and others. And I think we're right.

"As a Musician, I recognize that music is neutral"

I would say rather that as a musician, you have a dog in this fight, and a vested interest in the argument falling out in a predetermined path. There'd be quite a cost to you, emotionally and financially, if a significant number of your peers turned their back on what you've invested so many years in learning, wouldn't there?

"and that I can worship God using syncopation and dissonant chords just as easily as I can worship God using standard I-IV-V major chords with 4 part harmony."

A few weeks ago I went to Mass at St. Ignatius in Tokyo. As the parishoners began to approach the priest to receive communion, the organist began to play--something, I won't call it music--in a minor key with a great deal of dissonance. It reminded me of nothing so much as the danger music in a vampire movie.

You could, of course, predict my reaction to that, but I was interested to see if I was the only one so affected. I was not. I think somebody spoke to the organist, because it hasn't happened since.

"I would suggest that as long as certain types of music appeal to lust and violence in YOU, that you avoid that type of music."

And I would strongly suggest that your line of argumentation--asserting that I am the only one so affected--is not worthy of the subject. The very fact that the article at the head of the thread was written, and the fact that many agree with it, invalidated that argument before you even clicked the Post button.

Certain types of music appeal to lust and violence in the human being, and you just don't get it yet. Further, as you have significant incentive to reject the concept out of hand, you have a special duty to guard against the influence of self interest on your judgment.

"I have NEVER heard a Christian Rock song that appealed to any lust or violence within me."

One could hypothesize that exposure to non-Christian Rock has accustomed us to a certain level of lustful and violent feelings in our consciousness, and that Christian Rock appeals to those things at a lower level than ordinary rock. That would account for your misconception that the music itself--independent of the lyrics--is having no such effect on you.

"Just because you have a problem with certain types of music is no reason to condemn those who don't."

That sort of defensiveness arises from threatened self interest. I have condemned no one.

I'm tending to assume that you're not a Catholic. Don't really know why; I just get that impression.

We Catholics have a traditional form of worship in which the priest exposes a consecrated host--the Body of Christ--in a stand called a monstrance, and we spend an hour in prayer and adoration of Christ before it.

It would be an interesting experiment to see what would happen if someone like you were to do that once a week for six months, spending a good part of the hour praying on this, followed by an hour of listening to "proper" sacred music.

[dsc]

"properly places the origin of individual sin within the PERSON"

It's not a question of placing the origin of sin. That's not what the discussion is about. The question is whether certain forms of music appeal to and perhaps incite certain emotions or pre-existing tendencies within the human spirit.

Let's take a simple example, and one removed from the context of Christianity.

The Plains Indians had many forms of music. They had songs of rejoicing after victory in battle, music for getting pumped up for battle, music for grieving at a death, the famous death song to be sung before the expiration of one's own warranty, wedding music, music for various seasonal observances, and others.

There was great variety among them. They were not all accompanied by that Hollywood DUM-dum-dum-dum drum line. They were forms of music suitable for their respective occasions.

Suitable? Who decided what was suitable for a given occasion? Well, that seems to have been based solely on how those untutored savages felt about it, and the fact that they *did* feel that one form of music was suitable for this occasion and not for that indicates that something was going on that had nothing to do with the movie "10."

Further, there is no recorded instance of one tribe thinking that music similar to another tribe's war music was suitable for grieving, or that music similar to another tribe's death song was suitable for a wedding.

All that suggests to me that people are capable of judging the suitability of various forms of music--independently of lyrics--to various given purposes, based on how it makes them feel.

Now, do you suppose any Cheyenne brave ever looked up from scalping a freshly-killed Pawnee and said, "Hey, guys, you know what? Death music would really go better with a scalp dance than what we've been using"? I really doubt it.

But that's pretty much what we're doing here. I mean, the very words, "rock and roll" come from southern black slang describing optimal recreational activities. "Gonna rock (dance) and roll (have sex) tonight, man." And we have people saying, "Hey, guys, you know what? The lewd dancing and fornication music would really go better with sacred rites than what we've been using."

Just in the interest of noting that I've been on both sides, I used to be a big rock and roll fan. I saw the Kingsmen do "Louie Louie" live. I saw the Stones (several times), the Doors, the Allman Brothers, Led Zeppelin, Cream, Santana, Janis Joplin (several times), Jefferson Airplane, the Grateful Dead, Chicago, Z. Z. Top, Lynard Skynard, Country Joe and the Fish, Steppenwolf, Hendrix, the "Oldies Reviews" with Little Richard and all the 50s rock and rollers, the "Blues Reviews" with B.B. King and the rest, and...well, as they say, if you can remember the 60s, you didn't live through them. Many more.

The process of my coming to understand the true effects of this kind of music on the spirit parallels whatever has happened to me spiritually since I turned my face to Christ again.

I do not necessarily say that the music in and of itself is evil. More that it is a more congenial medium for evil to work because of its pre-rational effects on the human spirit.

"where the other side is arguing for sin WITHIN a neutral invention, a syncopated rhythm."

I disagree that music is neutral, but do not assert that sin lies within the music. Rather, it seems to me that some kinds of music, through their effects on the spirit, constitute an encouragement to sin, while other kinds, also through their effects on the spirit, constitute an invitation to reverence and worship.

[HatSteel]

I disagree that music is neutral...appeals to pre-existing tendencies within the human spirit.

This line actually agrees with what I've said. We definitely have those pre-existing tendencies (prone to wander, Lord I feel, it; prone to leave the God I love.)

Sin resides within humans. And a NUMBER of things are appealing to that sin nature.

For example, "his ox, his ass, his maidservant, his manservant..."

But perhaps BIG OXEN are more appealing than LITTLE OXEN. Therefore, we should forbid the breeding of BIG OXEN.

Pretty MAIDSERVANTS are more appealing than UGLY maidservants. (If you want to be happy for the rest of your life, Never make a pretty woman you wife; so from my personal point of view, get an ugly girl to marry you.) And, of course, only hire UGLY maidservants.

Rhythmic music is more attractive than my screeching in your ear. Therefore, have me screech in your ear.

I agree with marlowe. The thoughts that I associate with music are my thoughts. My sin. Otherwise, you have sin residing WITHIN the music, and you have the music conjuring up the thoughts in me.

[dsc]

"and you have the music conjuring up the thoughts in me."

No, you have the music eliciting *feelings* in you, which in turn can lead to thought, action, or both.

[HatSteel]

Sorry, but I am also responsible for my feelings. They are a choice that is made by me.

If I think about being angry with my spouse, then the responsibility rests with me.

If I allow angry feelings to invade a conversation with my spouse, then the responsibilibity rests with me.

Feelings are not "outside" you. They are created within you by you.

[A.J.Armitage]

Then there is the Contemporary Christian Music, which sounds like it is being sung in a nightclub.

I've never heard anything remotely like CCM in a nightclub.

[maestro]

Re:#4..................Your Comments?

BTTT

[A.J.Armitage]

And we have people saying, "Hey, guys, you know what? The lewd dancing and fornication music would really go better with sacred rites than what we've been using."

Sometimes that kind of switch actually works. The National Anthem is sung to an old drinking tune.

But the real problem is that you think all music influenced by African music to any degree is always intended for lewd dancing and fornication.

[Corin Stormhands]

I've never heard anything remotely like CCM in a nightclub.

I'd be willing to wager (sorry, it's that darn Vegas showgirl music), that unlike the author (and the other critics of CCM), that you may indeed have - once - been in a nightclub...

But that's a guess.

[JesseShurun]

I've been to a Vegas review and also to the LA Playboy club. (But I was younger then)

[Corin Stormhands]

I've been to a Vegas review and also to the LA Playboy club.

But you only went there for the praise and worship music. Right?