Pastoral Reflections on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass

Archdiocese of NY ^ | unknown | John Cardinal O'Connor

[OpusatFR]

It isn't Christian, narses.

That's the old strawman argument. It's the last fling of someone who cannot win the argument.

[man of Yosemite]

As I look at the early church, I see that Christ chose apostles that were married. If Christ selected married men to be of the twelve, how then do men today exclude the married? It seems a clear incongruity, a device manmade.

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

Michael,

Thank you for making my point. You said and I quote, "Listen to what GOD is saying in the Bible through His prophets and apostles." You realize what you just admited when you are debating a Catholic? Apostolic Succession, Our Sacred Tradition is handed down to us by the Apostles, for the Evangelists conclude their Gospels with comments that Jesus said and did much more but it wasn't written down. Who else would have seen it or heard it but the Apostles. The essence of the Tradition of the Church (the Big T tradition), is that handed down by the Apostles through Petrine Successsion (Matthew 16:18) and Apostolic Succession.

As for my thin skin, you haven't responded to the biblical quotes frequently put up in the debate. Respond to them, pick those translations, interpretations, readings apart, that is what makes theological debates so fun. And yes, you have tossed out the previous 1500 years of Biblical Readings (making 1517 and Luther a break point). Petrine Succession except in the East was supported and believed by most of the Early Church Fathers, the ones to whom we owe the present compilation of the Scriptures (though I imagine we both agree they were properly guided by the Holy Spirit).

One final question, if the Holy Spirit will show each individual the correct reading of Sacred Scripture, why are there so many different readings and interpretations within even the Evangelical Protestant camp, not even touching the Mainline? Please, if you are going to answer any question posed, this is the most cogent I think.

Thank You.

God Bless,

James

P.S. And when you call me thin-skinned and question my sincerity, you wonder why occasionally we (Catholic Freepers) in general are so frustrated by you. Yes I am genuine, and maybe I am thin-skinned, but I think it is wrong to doubt my sincerity in such a way. To end your doubts, I do believe in God, I do believe in His Son, Jesus Christ, and I do believe that on Calvary He took our Sins upon that Cross. Perhaps instead of questioning our sincerity and our belief, we can question our theology and tradition (for Sola Scripture is a tradition just as much as Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition are, just different ones).

[St.Chuck]

Good post.

[OMalley]

***Authentic believers in Christ have the witness of the indwelling Holy Spirit of GOD that they are of the Truth and speak GOD’s Truth. As Christ personally promised [John 16:13], the Holy Spirit of GOD leads all of GOD’s elect people into the truth and also safeguards them in the Truth.***

I understand what your saying, but ALL believers believe they have the indwelling Holy Spirit, yet many hold to different doctrines, theologys, interpretations, therefore how is one assured they have the HS from God? How do you know, for sure, yourself. as I had said, God would not send down the HS to give believers contradictory information.

***The Apostle Paul teaches in Ephesians 1:3-14 and elsewhere in the Scriptures that even before the creation of the world, GOD the Father chose those whom He would bring to eternal salvation in Christ. Even though the elect people of GOD are a vast number of people, they’re altogether less in number than the entire human species from Creation onwards. Thus, we see that it is not the will of GOD that all of the human species is to be brought to salvation in Christ.****

There has to be more scripture than that on the "elect". I would like to see all the scripture references, if you would endulge me.

I hear alot that Paul was a calvinist, but I dont see it, not if you read his letters in thier entirety, from start to end, without plucking verses out. Even if he was, other writters of the bible are not.

Again, its a matter of interpretation. I believe Christ could gather all us FRiends in the desert for an hour, preach to us and wed all still be back here the next hour arguing over what he meant.

Therefore all books must be read thouroughly and together which would give an overall look at Gods plan for salvation. I dont believe its neatly tucked in a few tidy verses. The bible wasnt written in verses, it was written as a letter (and boy was paul chatty;)

Regarding the elect, I still didnt understand what you meant by ALL. I remember seeing an argument here on FR not long ago on the word and meaning of "all" but I dont recall exactly where. Perhaps you could also indulge me in your interpretation of the word "all".

I sense you have reservations about the Roman Catholic faith. Have you ever talked with a priest, read the Catechism, attended an rcia class? So many ppl pass judgmenet on RC's without really knowing what we believe, they assume ALOT.

My own family has taken to doing exactly this with me at family functions. I told them if they wanted to discuss (they argue) my conversion with me I would only do so if they took said class and learned first. I beleive if they did, they would find many of thier fears (they are presbyterian) would be gone.

Since you are new, you might find you learn alot about RC's. There are some awesome RC posters here on FR. Unfortunatly I am not one of them;) You may find you have many misconceptions.

Blessings,
O'Malley