:-)
Posted on 03/13/2003 2:33:51 PM PST by xzins
Good insight from this passage.
A brief testimonial might help here. Over the past 3 years I've had many vivid dreams. Many of these dreams included events, persons, situations, names, even languages I'd never seen or was familiar with in the least bit. Yet upon awaking, if I researched them I discovered they linked to very real places.
I considered many possibilities but upon further Scriptural study , even going back to greek and Hebrew studies and review of Spiritual Warfare, I find several things of sound interest.
First, the dreams which I recollected and was cognizant within were not merely dreams, but did involve third parties foreign to myself, with even notions and ideas I had never considered. For this reason I accept that other persons were involved.
2) Were these persons spiritual in nature as in fallen angels?, deceiving spirits?, theophanies of some sort? In some dreams I could discern temptation and where induced by the other person I could deduce they were not from God, although He may have allowed the temptation to occur as a testing. I suffice it to say that the dreams involved the spiritual domain and that God is still in charge of all things here as well as there, although there may be multiple persons in that domain who are rebellious and antichristian just as we may encounter them in daily waking moments.
In other dreams, though, I found no cause to belive they weren't a blessing from God and by no means do I wish to grieve the Holy Spirit. SOme I believe were brought by Him or at least allowed and in keeping with His will.
3) We are born spiritually dead and upon our rebirth as Christians become spiritually alive. This is foolishness to unbelievers for they are spiritually dead.
3a) Note the language used here. In Scripture, where God is the God of the living not of the dead, these terms and language is directed at the living, the believing. This is a very important point to understand. It's ironic, I've studied so much Scripture without considering these things Spiritually, yet upon being awakened to the Spirit, the language takes on an entirely clear meaning, and yet it has been there for millenium. This leads me to an opinion that basically either one gets it or they don't. All we can do is attempt to guide them to consider a relationship with God, but if they don't get it, there's good reason why they aren't included.
3b) Conversely, many cults and antichristian beliefs focus on any deceiving spirit. Those who do not believe in God and remain rebellious to Him, might acknowledge and believe things in the spitual domain exist. When studying Scripture, which is Divinely inspired, remember that just as Christ never refers to Himself directly as God, but instead as the Son of man and Son of God and by logic one easily deduces he was God incarnate as the Messaiah, likewise, the Holy Spirit/Ghost I suspect will not exalt Himself, rather with His consistent nature displays a different person of God. The passage of Him being a God of the Living is very important in this regard. Unbelievers might not understand things of the Holy Spirit, because they are dead spiritually, i.e. dead, or separated from the Holy Spirit, YET they are still or may be still influencable by a domain of spirit, such as in deceiving spirits. E.g. Wiccans don't believe in God, but they very much believe in spirits, unfortunately they fail to live by the Holy Spirit and God's plan for them to live by His will.
4) Death, in hebrew is frequently better translated as a separation. The body separated from the soul/spirit as in the first death. A separation from God, as in death from sin. If one sins and becomes separated from God, they need a sin offering to return into fellowship with Him. The blood offering affords that offering as provided by Christ. These leads to some interesting concerns regarding sin during spiritual only encounters. If one sins in a dream, I assert there still is salvation through Christ upon repentance, but some insight might be gleaned upon this point regarding tricotomous and dicotomous nature of man.
Study of body, soul, spirit, along with other words such as heart, breath, soma, psyche, life, water, in both the Hebrew and Greek helps tremendously in this study,..or so I have found.
There is also an issue regarding a sin unto death which might be more indicative of soul sleep. For example, lets say a saved believer, repeatedly backslides to a point where he is saltless,...no longer of any value to the God of Living. That person might suffer a sin unto death or separation from God, and indeed perhaps not be used until a Judgement Day is pronounced. He might have salvation, for once he has been paid for and redeemded, he belongs to Christ, but he might not share in the same rewards or predestined glory because of the rebellion in his life. Soul sleep might be involved in that case, but generally speaking, our focus should rather be on worship and continued fellowship with Him, so such is not an issue.
Upon Christ's death, separation of body, soul, and spirit, His body was left to the grave for 3 days, while He descended and overcame the grave or the domain of Satan in Hades. He ascended, given a body ressurected and is now seated at the right hand of the Father. He also led the souls from Abraham's bosom when He ascended. Remember in the New Testament how many previously dead people raised from the dead after Christ in and about Galilee,..caused quite a stir.
Today, when a believer dies, separates soul/spirit from body, he is with the Lord. Not all rewards have been handed out, for they will occur after the great White Throne Judgment.
The Judgment emphasizes the second death and being thrown into the eternal Lake of Fire for unbelievers and rewards for the believer.
While I don't agree with the term "soul sleep", I do agree that what makes us "us" exists in an unconscious state until the resurrection.
I'll address the use of the term sleep in the bible for starters. The author implies that the verses he mentioned is the extent of the sleep=death in scripture, but he leaves out several verses:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
This seems to be a definitive statement.
Daniel 12:2 corroberates this view:
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Death is compared to sleep by the Lord:
Jer 51:39 In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.
And again:
Jer 51:57 And I will make drunk her princes, and her wise men, her captains, and her rulers, and her mighty men: and they shall sleep a perpetual sleep, and not wake, saith the King, whose name is the LORD of hosts.
Speaking of Moses death, God says again:
Deu 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers...
God once again says:
2Sa 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
In fact, the term "slept with the fathers" is used to denote death in the old testament close to 40 times. Again:
Psa 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Jesus tries to teach people that death is comparable to sleep in the story of the dead maiden in three of the gospels:
Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Mar 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
And John in the tale of Lazarus:
Joh 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
The resurrection of the saints upon the death of Christ:
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Stephen is stoned, his death is called sleep:
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Again in Acts, King David is described as sleeping:
Act 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
Paul describes death as sleep 5 times in 1 corinthians in describing the resurrection :
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
And again in Ephesians:
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
And:
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Peter also compares death to sleep:
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
These are just the 60 or 70 something verses I found that used the terms "sleep", "slept" or "asleep" for death. There are many others that denote a state of consciousness like sleep but doesn't use the words.
In short, instead of "sleep" being used in isolated verses instead it's clearly and consistently used to describe the state of death.
What's astounding is that the both the old testament and new testament agree that death is sleep. God himself, who presumably would know, clearly likens death to sleep. Jesus Christ likens death to sleep. Mark, John, Luke, Paul, and Peter all agree...death is like sleeping.
Now with all this scripture detailing that death is like sleep, I don't feel comfortable blithely dismissing it as a euphemism used by God in heaven, God incarnate, Peter, Paul, Mark, Luke, and John.
There are simply too many problems created when this parable is interpreted literally. In essence it's a parable about Jews (the rich man) and Gentiles (Lazarus). A good piece that explains it in context has been posted here:
???
Not sure what you mean.
One of the points of the soul sleepers is that once they die they sleep(cease to exist, actually). That cessation equals a cessation of time for them, so that the interval between their death and their resurrection SEEMS like just a moment. In actuality, on earth huge amounts of time have passed.
I believe you're able to recognize the passage of time, because you are part of the "great cloud of witnesses" that surround the then current believers on earth.
I do not think that you are timeless in the sense that God would be in that God can know the future as if it were the present. Therefore, in your knowing of those yet on earth, you would not, IMO, be able to traverse time forward as God does. That would be an act demonstrating omniscience-like abilities which I'm supposing are reserved only for God.
I agree that the spirit goes immediately to the Lord. However I think the bible teaches that the state of the spirit is unconscious and that's also why the term sleep is used so often.
:-)
BEAUTIFUL Freudian Slip!
Amen! LOL!
Standard Muslim theology teaches there is one Judgment on the Last Day, and until then all the departed souls simply sit and wait and wait and wait, uncertain of how Allah's scales will balance for them.
With one exception:
Anyone who dies a Martyr bypasses this system. Martyrs do not pass "Go." They do not collect $200. They go through the Express Checkout and waltz straight into Paradise, all their sins forgiven.
There's a lot more to this suicide/homicide bombing stuff than the $3000 paid to the parents.
What surprises me most is that there aren't more of them ... and that we haven't had any in the States yet.
However, the spirit goes immediately to be with the Lord.
There is a problem with your second statement if you take the story of Lazarus and Dives literally. I have described the problem at the other post about this story here: Post #8
Hank
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