Posted on 08/12/2002 1:15:54 PM PDT by DittoJed2
No, because God has Decreed that the free will be free, thus decisions will be played out as such.
Permissive will is not a directive will.
God did not want sin in His Universe, but allowed it since He could not have free will without it.
It shows how seriously God wanted rational creatures who could freely choose both for and against Him that He would allow something in the Universe that would cost Him the life of His own Son.
The only alternative to that scenaro is God being the author of sin, wanting it, and then sending the reprobate to hell because of it.
That was Calvin's view.
Take your pick.
Because God acts on prayers, which is different then merely foreknowing something.
No wonder I've been feeling better recently. Now, if we can only get to 'swear off' a few other things.
Gee, I don't think I said anything like that. I think what I said was that God didn't make any Calvinist robots. He does make men who can (that word means 'are capable of'), but are not compelled to, have a relationship with Him. Only those who elevate their manmade determinist construct above the plain meaning of Scripture posit robotic theories of salvation and damnation.
Your screen name implies that you have seven children. If that be true (and if you are a normal parent), you deeply desire, relish and cherish the love of your children. In saying that, we mean that normal human parents naturally (i.e. it is part of their very nature to) desire, relish and cherish the free, uncompelled response of their children in a relationship.
If such a human parent were to set out to entirely bind their children and withhold all the elements of life (air, water, food, love or care of any kind) and then set up a large 'wheel of fortune' with 8 or 10 stops saying, "torture", "suffering", "punishment", and "death" for every one saying "release" and "love" and then announced to their horribly abused children that the parent would spin the wheel to determine the children's fate, we would describe that human 'parent' as a monster, a very caricature of evil. Most anyone here would condemn such a monstrous person.
Yet the determinist construct defenders here continually argue that the Loving God of the Bible is not as represented by Scripture -- i.e. One who truly desires a free, loving relationship with His created beings. Rather, they proudly parade their little god as a sadomasochistic monster -- of their own construct's creation -- who arbitrarily punishes or grants rewards to his permanently bound children pursuant to the results of some prehistoric 'wheel of fortune.'
Only those Calvinists believe that nonsense. I think that's what I was trying to convey.
But prayer is to ask God to interfere with mans free will..and if he answers it he does interfere with mans free will
So then there is no such thing as original sin? You agree with Hank on this??
How can man make a "choice" to develop a good character that will choose good?
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not
So IF man can not choose God how does one develop this character? I beleive that God has a plan for each of us Dec..that includes our character
You wrote
That is why parents are commanded to teach their children to fear God.
Who gave Esther her family? Who placed her there at that time?
You make Esther a savior..Her position a fluke..
I say that Esther was born for just such a time...I say that God placed in her heart a desire to be obedient to God..I say that God placed her in a family that would nurish the character that God had given her..I say that the Book of Esther is about a work of God..you make is a nice story about a good woman..how pathetic!
And next post you will yap about believing in free will-what a bunch of double-talkers you are!
What does Pro. 22:6 teach? What does Pr.8:17 teach, I love them that seek me and those that seek me early find me.
As for Romans 3:11, it also says in Luke1:6 and they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless Now, according to Romans 3:11 that is not suppose to be possible.
Start reading the Bible as the Bible and not just a series of proof-texts.
We are commanded in 1Pet.1:21 not to take any verses in isolation but to compare scripture with scripture and reconcile them.
Original sin is separation from God so he cannot do anything to earn salvation.
Man is commanded however to seek God (Acts.17:30) and held responsible for not doing so (Rom.1:21)
You wrote That is why parents are commanded to teach their children to fear God. Who gave Esther her family? Who placed her there at that time?
God gave Esther Mordecai and he raised her but she had to choose to respond to what he taught her, now didn't she?
You make Esther a savior..Her position a fluke.. I say that Esther was born for just such a time...I say that God placed in her heart a desire to be obedient to God..I say that God placed her in a family that would nurish the character that God had given her..I say that the Book of Esther is about a work of God..you make is a nice story about a good woman..how pathetic!
You make Esther nothing but a sophisicated robot, who God controlled and had no other alternative but to do but what God wanted.
You remove the decision that she made for God with your non-scriptural, God-denying, cultic mentality.
Why raise up Esther at all, why not just control the King directly?
Now, how does prayer interfere with man's free will?
Even prayers for someone else salvation is only to keep that person under conviction, we know that God cannot save them without their own will involved.
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