Posted on 07/25/2002 7:23:40 AM PDT by xzins
Why? If you unalterably select them to heaven (unconditional election) then NOTHING can make them NOT be in heaven. They will be there no matter what happens.
Since the Bible absolutely teaches that God's grace can be resisted, that means that any person can turn down God's offer of grace. That is, they can remain an unbeliver.
This situation can then occur: God selects Mr Y to go to heaven before Y is even born, before even the creation happens. Mr Y is finally born. He grows. HE CHOOSES to resist God's grace and remain an unbeliever.
That would give us the biblically impossible situation of an unbeliever in heaven. Unbeliever because he chose to resist. In heaven because he was preselected to be there and nothing can change that.
The entire calvinist system collapses around the bible truth that God's grace and the Holy Spirit can be resisted.
Both you and the calvinists rely far too little on the Holy Spirit's guidance.
I should hope so. The Holy Spirit is alive, well, and present, you know. The Holy Spirit speaks to His children about their own lives. That's material that isn't in the bible, you know.
Let me ask you this about your saying the Holy Spirit speaks to His children. If I were standing next to you, would I hear him speaking to you? Or are you talking about "speaking to one's heart?"
No, all we need to know about God comes from the Scriptures, not directly from the Holy Spirit
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect throughly furnished unto all good works (2Tim.3:15-17)The Holy Spirit works through the scriptures, not directly through the individual.
Yes, remember Paul preaching to King Agrippa who was "almost persuaded" and all the rest he preached to, and some believed and some did not. Acts 28:24
God, then, must do something in the sinner to make him willing(emphsis mine). And his he does through irresistable grace. Note that the text says 'unless the Father draw him' The Father sends the Spirit to 'draw' the sinner to Christ in a special way. Now, non-Calvinists may agree up to a point here. The usual view is that the Spirit draws all men who hear the Gospel. Well, the Spirit does draw all who hear, but not all in the same way (emphasis mine). The general calling (emphasis mine) is always resisted and rejected, but there is another calling, which is referred to here. It always wins....The point is simply this: when God sets out to save some one of the elect, He so works on his heart that he successfully overcomes all resistance. He irresistablly and efficaciously draws the sinner to Christ. It never fails....Irresistable Grace is simply the comination of electing grace and omnipotence. (The History and thelogy of Calvinism, Daniel, p.379-80)What is important in this statement is how clever it is!
Irresistable grace changes the will so that the man wants to believe, thus, when we say that one must freely yield or assent, the Calvinist can say, 'we teach free will also'
Two, they also maintain that man does resist God in the general call.
Hence, knowing that the Scriptures teach that man has a will and a decision to make, the Calvinists very cleverly use the terms while distorting their meaning.
Thus, they can say with a straight face that man does have 'free will' 'must willingly believe' and 'can resist God', thus, you do not really understand Calvinism.
This is real 'Jesuit' stuff here!
Hence, you must always bring the debate back to its root, unconditional vs conditional election, since they have distorted every point of TULIP to make it mean whatever they choose it to mean.
---so says Al Maxey
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
---so says God
Take your pick! You can choose, you know, or you can resist, like your fathers Calvin, and Augustine.
Rom 13:2 ... and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
(I know Rom. 13:2 is talking about earthly govenment. It's not a proof text, I'm just borrowing the language. BUT, if resisting a worldy power brings damnation, how much more damnable is resisting heavenly power.)
Hank
The above includes the excerpt you quoted from Maxey. Recall that he is here explaining the calvinist view -- the wrong view proposed by man. He goes on in the 2nd section to propose the proper view taught by God in the bible.
I can't tell from your post if you caught that or not. If you did, I'm sorry.
If opposing government brings damnation, then it is paralleled by a higher order resistance that results in ultimate damnation -- to ultimately resist God is to result in not being saved.
And it is this point that is wrong. It is wrong scripturally.
Since it's wrong, that means one of the so-called calvinist "elect" can resist, be an unbeliever, and STILL be in heaven because of calvin's horrible decree.
This does indicate that Agrippa was touched, convicted, and then resisted.
I appreciate your believing what you believe.
I, though, am a bible literalist and I find many passages that say that people resisted God, but I find none that specifically say "God overcame so-and-so's will and forced him to believe."
There are numerous passages above that testify to individuals resisting the Lord. That means it is the correct teaching. There are many others not listed here.
As a matter of bible teaching the calvinist position lacks scriptural support.
I can't tell from your post if you caught that or not....
I hadn't "caught that" when I posted, but did aftwards. You beat me to the correction however, which saves me the trouble, thanks!
My point remains the same, however.
Hank
In the case of resisting the Lord, the Bible has numerous examples where that takes place, clearly and above board.
The bottom line is that "resistible grace" is a bible teaching. Resistible grace is absolutely incompatible with calvin's "unconditional election." It is totally compatible with the bible's "conditional election."
You seem like a fair person. As one guy said the other day, "We'll get together in heaven and chuckle over some of our earthly misunderstandings of doctrine." Then we'll know fully even as we are fully known.
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