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Absolute Obedience and Relative Obedience
The Remnant Newspaper ^ | June 13, 2023 | Robert Lazu Kmita

Posted on 06/16/2023 8:53:23 AM PDT by ebb tide

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1 posted on 06/16/2023 8:53:23 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Al Hitan; Fedora; irishjuggler; Jaded; kalee; markomalley; miele man; Mrs. Don-o; ...

Ping


2 posted on 06/16/2023 8:54:09 AM PDT by ebb tide (The pope ... said the church's “catechesis on sex is still in diapers.”)
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To: ebb tide

This issue had emerged and been dealt with: Vatican One. What the rest of the world reported as a shocking power grab was actually more fundamentally a yielding to reason. By defining the conditions of infallibility, Vatican One also defined the limits of papal authority. Yes, the papacy would after such still retain worldly authority, but it was from that point on understood that such worldly authority was akin to the pagan, Roman emperors, and, should that authority be wielded unjustly, the Christian henceforth had the understanding that the moral decision to be made was whether to suffer that injustice or correct it


3 posted on 06/16/2023 12:01:10 PM PDT by dangus ( )
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To: dangus

I should also be clear that like all infallible pronouncements, Vatican One did not innovate, but rather enunciate. Catholics had justly resisted a pope’s injustice and been recognized as holy, although perhaps now the suppression of the Jesuits seems a less clear example than it once did.


4 posted on 06/16/2023 12:03:38 PM PDT by dangus ( )
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To: ebb tide; ConservativeMind; ealgeone; Mark17; BDParrish; fishtank; boatbums; Luircin; mitch5501; ...
“What are the limits of the Pope's power?”[i] The answer contains only one, short word: God. Indeed. God himself is the limit of the pontifical power – as He is, at the same time, the limit of any other position or function of power, ecclesiastical or social-political. Because God himself, who is THE Source of every principle and absolute truth of both moral life and Christian Faith (besides all the content of the Divine and Apostolic Tradition), is the limit of any representative of every hierarchical office/function on earth. Why so? Because God is the sole and absolute Creator of any legitimate hierarchy under the sun. We owe absolute obedience only and exclusively to God. That is why we must emphasize an essential axiom: we owe absolute obedience only and exclusively to God. God not only revealed to us the Moral Law (through Moses) and supernatural Faith (through the Holy Bible, free of every error), but also the content of the Divine Tradition, which includes the Liturgy and the Sacraments. ... we owe him [the pope] obedience only if what he teaches us respects God’s absolute authority.
As a former devout weekly mass-going RC (and altar boy, lector, CCD teacher) but Bible evangelical for about 40 of my 71 years, bless God, I can tell you that what you are arguing (“We ought to obey God, rather than men” ] obedience only if what is taught is consistent with God’s word) is essentially that of acting like a evangelical is supposed to, in regards to ascertaining the veracity of current church teaching by examination of historical church teaching, except for us that is the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels, and in which distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest .

For when you hold that obedience to the pope - and by extension, the living magisterium whose power flows from the pope - only if what is taught is consistent with God’s word, you are acting contrary to the teaching of Rome, in which the only means if assuredly knowing what revelation is of God is by faith in Rome.

“the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities between the word of God and his reading.” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium)
“People cannot discover the contents of revelation by their unaided powers of reason and observation. They have to be told by people who have received in from on high.” ( Cardinal Avery Dulles)

Thus in apologetics toward the unconverted, it is taught that Scripture is to be appealed to as merely reliable historical source, which hopefully helps the potential convert to place faith in Rome, and thereby know what is of God.

it should be premised that when we appeal to the Scriptures for proof of the Church's infallible authority we appeal to them merely as reliable historical sources, and abstract altogether from their inspiration.” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Infallibility)

And RC law law is to be considered supreme under the premise that it cannot lead one astray since God is the author of it, as He is of Scripture.

Catholic doctrine, as authoritatively proposed by the Church, should be held as the supreme law; for, seeing that the same God is the author both of the Sacred Books and of the doctrine committed to the Church…(Providentissimus Deus)Pope Leo XIII)

And therefore as no less than Cardinal Manning asserted:

It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine....
I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity. It rests upon its own supernatural and perpetual consciousness. Its past is present with it, for both are one to a mind which is immutable. Primitive and modern are predicates, not of truth, but of ourselves....
The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour. — "Most Rev." Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, Lord Archbishop of Westminster, “The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation,” (New York: J.P. Kenedy & Sons, originally written 1865, reprinted with no date), pp. 227-228)

And thus you have papal statements such as,

"the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors," "to suffer themselves to be guided and led in all things that touch upon faith or morals by the Holy Church of God through its Supreme Pastor the Roman Pontiff," "of submitting with docility to their judgment," with "no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed... not only in person, but with letters and other public documents ;" and 'not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority, " for "obedience must not limit itself to matters which touch the faith: its sphere is much more vast: it extends to all matters which the episcopal power embraces," and not set up "some kind of opposition between one Pontiff and another. Those who, faced with two differing directives, reject the present one to hold to the past, are not giving proof of obedience to the authority which has the right and duty to guide them," "Nor must it be thought that what is expounded in Encyclical Letters does not of itself demand consent." sources

Not rendering this, but taking it upon yourself to determine the veracity of what is taught, leads to division, which Catholicism exists in, including various sects of TradCaths who dsagree with each other. For not only can what consists of authoritatively doctrine proposed by the Church see debate, but so can the meanings of such.

5 posted on 06/17/2023 12:55:25 PM PDT by daniel1212 (As a damned+destitute sinner turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves souls on His acct + b baptized 2 obey)
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To: daniel1212
As a former devout weekly mass-going RC...

What is so "devout" about going to Mass the absolute minimum of once a week?

I'm not surprised you have apostatized if you consider that to be a "devout" Catholic.

6 posted on 06/17/2023 1:22:34 PM PDT by ebb tide (The pope ... said the church's “catechesis on sex is still in diapers.”)
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To: daniel1212

Catholicism is -——
.
Stopped there.
.
I hope the chains——
The Scales
The twisted traditions would fall
From my brother’s eyes and hands.
Christ came to Free the Slaves !
Amen


7 posted on 06/17/2023 2:01:40 PM PDT by Big Red Badger (The Truman Show)
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To: ebb tide

If you say you’re a Catholic

But you don’t obey the pope

Then you’re really not a Catholic….

In Jesus only you should hope.


8 posted on 06/17/2023 5:36:22 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

Broken record.

Pathetic.


9 posted on 06/17/2023 5:37:41 PM PDT by ebb tide (The pope ... said the church's “catechesis on sex is still in diapers.”)
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To: ebb tide

There is the fatal flaw in your performance based religion.

The rituals are NEVER enough in your estimation.

In fact, even the death of Jesus to pay for sin isn’t enough.

Come to Christ and repent of your lack of faith.

He finished his work on the cross.


10 posted on 06/17/2023 5:39:50 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: ebb tide

The Mass is a pathetic record of man made ritual.

… continuously telling Jesus that he hasn’t suffered enough….


11 posted on 06/17/2023 5:41:01 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: ebb tide

You have bound your conscience to obey the pope.

Today can be the day of salvation to accept Jesus’s FULL payment for your sin.


12 posted on 06/17/2023 5:42:27 PM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: fishtank

Every time you sin, Jesus has already suffered that sin in His agony in the garden and His Passion.

But I guess you protestants don’t care about that. Y’all think you have a free ticket to Heaven.

Good luck with that!


13 posted on 06/17/2023 5:45:08 PM PDT by ebb tide (The pope ... said the church's “catechesis on sex is still in diapers.”)
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To: fishtank
You have bound your conscience to obey the pope.

You're not a mind-reader. Stop pretending you are.

14 posted on 06/17/2023 5:47:14 PM PDT by ebb tide (The pope ... said the church's “catechesis on sex is still in diapers.”)
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To: fishtank
Today can be the day of salvation ...

And today can be the day those who reject Christ's One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church reject salvation.

15 posted on 06/17/2023 5:51:33 PM PDT by ebb tide (The pope ... said the church's “catechesis on sex is still in diapers.”)
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To: fishtank
In fact, even the death of Jesus to pay for sin isn’t enough.

Is that why you prots feel you have free license to "sin, and sin boldly"!

See where that gets you at your final judgement.

16 posted on 06/17/2023 5:55:15 PM PDT by ebb tide (The pope ... said the church's “catechesis on sex is still in diapers.”)
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To: All

Chosen by the College of Cardinals with guidance from the Holy Spirit, yet Catholics are questioning/protesting the pope’s ultimate authority? Sounds kinda “Protest-ant”! ;-)

https://www.britannica.com/event/Reformation


17 posted on 06/17/2023 5:59:41 PM PDT by Drago
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To: ebb tide; Big Red Badger
What is so "devout" about going to Mass the absolute minimum of once a week? I'm not surprised you have apostatized if you consider that to be a "devout" Catholic.

I see: you presume mentioning just one part of being a devout RC was the whole, and as usually, engage in ad hominem in lieu of an argument. That being the case, I will add that having baptized by my uncle, a RC priest from Scotland (one of two), I was raised in a very devout RC household, not simply faithfully attending weekly mass, but also every holy day of obligation, and I do not ever remembering missing any while we also often attended other services. We All my brothers and I were altar boys and along with my sisters made out first communion and confirmation, and all went to confession very regularly.

Later in my life, having come back to church after about a 7 year absence, and becoming truly born again with its new and profound basic changes in heart and life, I once more became a faithful mass and confession-going RC, receiving communion when in good conscience (which had been much awakened) and also became a lector and CCD teacher during that time.

Yet while this faithfulness was much due to my sincere repentance, my hungry soul was being much fed by listening to a evangelical radio station, and being a truck driver/delivery person (wholesale milk and ice cream) working many hours, then I had much time to listen. It was such that "expounded unto him [me] the way of God more perfectly." (Acts 18:26) It was via that preaching that I had realized that salvation was by unmerited grace received by effectual faith, and affirmed that faith. Even nature seemed new to me around that time, yet my conscience also was more conscious of my failings and repentant over them than ever before.

Meanwhile, the radio messages were edifying and overall basically uniform and complementary, and I could usually detect what was debatable, and I was also sometimes attending RC charismatic meetings, looking for life in the RC system, as most RC seemed to simply engage in rote perfunctory professions. In so doing 1979 I also went to see JP2 in Boston when he came there as well as a charismatic congress in Providence R.I., and also went to some "master teacher" CCD schooling lessons.

However, I gradually was realizing the contrast btwn what I saw in the faith and life of the NT church and that of Catholicism (and btwn me). But it was mainly due to my seeking to serve God, in worship/ and in evangelism, that led me to pray to God about whether I should do to a different church, and which was promptly answered, and which led me into evangelical fellowship, thanks be to God. Which would result in chapters to cover, if not all positive personally or otherwise.

Thus while based upon your interpretation of what valid church teaching is and means, you reject Francis and "innovations" of V2 etc. apparently are without a living pope, I also reject many teachings in Catholicism - and have no pope at all - based upon my interpretation of what valid church teaching is and means. The difference being, as said, that for me the definitive source of valid church teaching is the only wholly God-inspired, substantive, authoritative record of what the NT church believed - especially Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels in which distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest .

18 posted on 06/17/2023 6:10:44 PM PDT by daniel1212 (As a damned+destitute sinner turn 2 the Lord Jesus who saves souls on His acct + b baptized 2 obey)
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To: fishtank; ebb tide
"performance based religion"

A perfect 3-word description of the matter.

ebb- when faced with defeat, you always change the subject. It makes it obvious that you've lost your case.

... the proof is in your response.

19 posted on 06/17/2023 6:52:23 PM PDT by kinsman redeemer (The real enemy seeks to devour what is good. )
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To: ebb tide
“What are the limits of the Pope's power?”


 


'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,
' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'  


20 posted on 06/17/2023 7:16:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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