'Barking At Putin's Door': Pope Francis Suggests NATO Started War In Ukraine By Provoking Russia

IBT ^ | Nicholas Morgan

[BroJoeK]

joma89: "Even asking that question shows you are unable to connect the strategic dots that caused russia to respond with its military in 2022."

Here are the "strategic dots" that matter:

1. Young Putin was a KGB officer in East Germany when the old Soviet Empire collapsed.
   He considered that the "greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the Twentieth Century."

2. Putin has devoted himself to restoring the old Empire, note Justa post #31 above.

3. Putin is plenty cagy enough to recognize that Western leadership can wax & wain over time, and today's leadership is even weaker than it was under Barak Obama.
   This was especially obvious in the US skedaddle from Afghanistan.

4. So Putin realized that the timing will never be better for him to launch his invasion of Ukraine -- our weakness is what provoked Putin, not some stupid "barking"!

Those are the "strategic dots" that matter.
Everything else is just more bovine excrement propaganda.

[Vaden]

Pope Marx is full of shinola just like the PUtler fan club here. RuSSia is one of the most fascist nations in world history. Its people have never truly been free. It has committed crimes against its own people and others that mirror the Nazi’s.

No REAL conservative would support that.

[BroJoeK]

lodi90: "Russia invaded and murdered its neighbors long before NATO was a thing. Russia’s neighbors provoke them simply by existing."

What "provokes" Russians like Putin is only one thing, and that is our weakness! Nothing else matters.

We demonstrated laughable weakness in our skedaddle from Afghanistan, and Putin drew the obvious conclusions -- that we'd do nothing serious to stop him in Ukraine.

Today China's Xi is watching carefully to learn what not to do when he invades Taiwan.

Maybe we will learn a lesson or two also?

[citizen]

Yep, you don’t poke the Russian bear. Any fool knows that.

[citizen]

I'm no Putin/Russia lover. Why would I be? It's just that the world is a big place and full of disparate peoples and countries. Defending the Ukraine is simply not our business or in our best interest. (It is in the interests of the money launderers & those running the bio-weapons and bio-use labs)

I'm more concerned with China and their grabs in the S. China Sea & in the greater Pacific Ocean. If our so-called leaders were looking after our well-being, thy'd be dealing with that instead of throwing away our resources in Eastern Europe.

[BroJoeK]

Nextrush: "The aggressive NATO expansion to the East started during the Clinton Administration as pointed out by Peter Hitchens who reported from Washington during the Clinton years."

NATO expanded eastward for the obvious reason that Eastern European countries, formerly subjects of Soviet oppression rightly feared an expansionist Russia, under a ruler like Putin, would someday do what Putin is now doing.

If you [Putin] think the collapse of the old Soviet Union was the, "greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the Twentieth Century," then you are simply biding your time until conditions are right -- the best they've ever been -- for you to begin reconstituting the old Russian/Soviet Empire.
And where better to begin than with the clearly corrupt & weakened Ukraine?

Nextrush: "The US has participated in coups to overthrow other governments John Bolton in essence admitted it in an interview earlier this year."

John Bolton, like Liz Cheney & a few others, abandoned all pretense of recognizable sanity when he went into opposition to Donald Trump. TDS -- Trump Derangement Syndrome simply destroys anything useful going on between your ears.

I have not studied carefully what happened in 2014 -- was there some kind of coup?
What I know is there have been two Ukrainian presidential elections since then, including the one which elected the current Ukraine president.
Today Ukrainians have the government they voted for.

Nextrush: "Russia saw NATO creeping eastward too far eastward for its comfort then the Ukraine coup of 2014."

Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014 when Democrat Barak Obama was US President and Putin realized he could get away with whatever he wanted.
Now we have another Democrat President, even weaker than Obama, and so Putin simply could not let this opportunity pass to complete what he started in 2014 -- the annexation of Ukraine.

When we are weak, Russia will expand its borders.

[BroJoeK]

BobL: "Everyone familiar with the history there knows he’s right - but for people with connections to Ukraine, I can see why they deny it.
Glad, at least, to see the Pope starting the discussion at a high level."

The way the Europeans & US "provoked" Putin was by being weak -- weakness provokes, "barking" is irrelevant.
In 2014 Putin judged correctly that Pres. Obama was too weak to do anything significant to oppose Putin's first invasion of Ukraine.
In 2022 Putin judged that alleged Pres. Biden was even weaker and so this was the best opportunity he'd ever have to complete the invasion & annexation of Ukraine.

Turns out that Biden was & is weak, but some other leaders were not, nor are the Ukrainians, and Putin himself was victimized by his own lies!
It seems now that Russians are not quite the supermen they'd claimed to be.

[BroJoeK]

jpsb: "The Pope is exactly right. There was no need for NATO to start courting Ukraine."

Putin's invasion of Ukraine demonstrates clearly why Ukraine wanted NATO membership, and the current risk to Europeans & others of a run-amuck, out of control, Russian bear shows why NATO was interested in Ukraine.

What "provoked" Putin was the demonstrated weakness of leaders like alleged Pres. Biden, notably in his skedaddle from Afghanistan.

[BroJoeK]

"He's also correct in saying that the flow of weapons into Ukraine was a “disgrace”."

So, you think that Ukraine had too many weapons, and why Putin had to invade them?

Clearly Ukraine did not have enough weapons to deter Putin's aggression.

[Verginius Rufus]

Pope Francis keeps pandering to anti-Western dictators like Putin and Xi. He abandoned the Chinese Catholics who were loyal to Rome for decades despite pressure from the government to attend the state-sponsored version of the Catholic Church. What is the status of the Ukrainian Catholic Church in the parts of Ukraine under Russian occupation? I don’t think Russia has ever recognized the right of Ukrainians to be Catholic rather than Orthodox (of course the majority of Ukrainians are Orthodox). As far as I know, Pope Francis has not spoken up on behalf of the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

[Magnatron]

First off, this “pope” should stay out of politics.

Second…

…he’s right.

[BroJoeK]

citizen: "I'm no Putin/Russia lover.
Why would I be?
It's just that the world is a big place and full of disparate peoples and countries.
Defending the Ukraine is simply not our business or in our best interest.
(It is in the interests of the money launderers & those running the bio-weapons and bio-use labs)"

The essence of your argument -- please correct me if I'm wrong -- is that it will not matter, whatever Putin does in Ukraine -- be that invasion, genocide, annexation, whatever -- it still doesn't matter to us.
Therefore, we should not be involved in helping Ukrainians, right?
And the same argument can be made regarding China's invasion of Taiwan, right?
And, while we're at it, if North Korea nukes & invades South Korea, what do we care?
And why should we care if Iran invades its Sunni neighbors & nukes Israel?
Let them all go, it's none of our business, right?

My argument is the reverse -- whenever an aggressive dictatorship invades its neighbors, their success will breed more invasions of more neighbors.
The only thing that can stop dictators like Putin or Xi or Kim or whoever else, is defeat or -- much better -- deterrence.

When we look weakest, that's when they are most likely to attack, just as Putin did after our skedaddle from Afghanistan.
When dictators are not deterred, then they have to be defeated, or else we'll see more & more invasions.

[citizen]

You must own a lot of defense oriented stocks. There's such places as your concerned about all over.

As far as the Ukraine, the western part is almost all mistreated Russians who would welcome switching their territory to Russia. Such a deal was worked out, then scuttled by the Euros, primarily Great Britain. They wanted the war but, as usual, weren't willing or able to fight it.

In their mind any NATO concern, which this is not, is a problem for the USA to deal with. If you like it, stop typing and go fight.