Posted on 07/26/2019 3:04:17 AM PDT by Cronos
ok. again not a salvation issue. believe what you want I don’t have a dog in that hunt
Revelation is also the only book that promises a blessing to those who read it. :)
Actually, the church is never specifically referred to as the "bride of Christ".
Scripture clearly disproves your point. Read 2 Thess 2:1-4
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless
(1) the falling away comes first, and
(2) the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
This passage clearly says the anti-christ will be revealed before our gathering to Christ.
Sorry, but you’re confused.
Rapture .ne. Second coming
2 Tim 2:15
Bye!
A proper reading of John 14:1-3 would recognize that Christ is using the Hebrew custom of the betrothal process where the soon to be husband goes off to prepare a dwelling for his bride and himself. In Revelation 19:6-9 you have a clearer picture of the idea of “the bride” pictured at the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Elsewhere in Ephesians 5:23-32, Paul speaking about husbands and wives concludes his Spirit-led remarks with: “This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.”
It says “gathering together with him”. That refers to the rapture/resurrection.
I Thess 4:16 & 17 are pretty clear and specific in a description of the events: "the dead in Christ shall rise first; [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
When does this happen? Not a forecast of a specific day or time but of the conditions on the time line at the time of the event. I Thess 5:2: "The day of the Lord so comes a a thief in the night"."
In II Thess 3:2, he says: [T]hat day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed." I look at the conditions of the day and have no difficulty seeing them as a "falling away". So at the point we see revealed the "man of sin", we can think that the day is at hand.
Now you want to write the Revelation out of the book. Fine. You can believe what you want but it looks also to me as a pretty good description (in Rev. I through VI) of current conditions and the general pattern also looks pretty sound. Christians of the third and fourth Century thought John was a sufficiently credible testimony to incorporate Revelation in the Book.
After the description of the events in Rev. 6:1 through 11, you have historically "Great" earthquake [in 6:12] and chapter 6 ends with the proposition in 6:17 that "the great day of his wrath is at hand" (and followed in Rev. 7:9-14 by the appearance of the saved Christians who "came out of great tribulation" in heaven before the Throne of the Lord).
Since Paul tells us in I Thess 5:9 following his description of the event in which "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the cluds" that "God hath not appointed us to wrath". So we believe that means we are going to come out of the great tribulation before the "great day of his wrath" starts.
Jesus Christ Himself tells us in Matthew 24:15 "when you see the 'Abomination of Desolation spoke of by Daniel the prophet" . . . . [Matt 24:21] then shall be Great Tribulation".
So we think it is a pretty fair reading of these passages to see that after the Man of Sin (the anti-christ) appears the Great Tribulation starts with the Abomination of Desolation event but before the execution of God's Wrath has begun, Christians will be lifted off the Earth into the Clouds with the resurrected believers and so shall be ever be with the Lord. Literally, that could happen before or after the Great Earthquake--it doesn't look as though God thought we needed to know that.
Literally, as described in Rev. 7:14, believers come "out of great tribulation" so the event may well happen after the great tribulation has started with the Abomination of Desolation Event.
Point is that these passages describe an integrated course of events ending with Christians being lifted out into the Clouds and off the Earth.
None of this happens before the man of sin is revealed. The time line is obviously obscured--"no man knows the day nor the hour--only the Father".
But if you want to dispute the general understanding of the end of the Church age, you need to pick these words apart because as set out here, the course of events seems pretty well described.
Good point. This is such an interesting thread. I wish we could get more threads like this on the Religion board rather than endless posts on internal Catholic church politics.
PWND
I do not see this as discrediting Paul, but the interpretations of his writings. I, too, find little with the concept of the rapture which is consistent with the balance of scripture.
The real damage it can cause is complacency about the world: “I wont be here, so what difference does it make.” This attitude is totally contrary to the balance of scripture.
Some prophecy doesn’t get understood until it’s happening and some doesn’t get understood until after the fact.
Just like with Jesus’ first coming, the Incarnation.
Just because it wasn’t recognized for a long time, doesn’t mean it’s not right.
As well as written by John, the beloved disciple.
I agree with you. I was just pointing out the scripture never directly calls the church the “Bride of Christ’.
That is a good attitude
“lets just say I’ve work to do.”
You don’t. Happily ... “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us ... “ Titus 3:5
Just believe and accept.
Then I found the Southern Baptist Conference did not “endorse or refute” those doctrines.
The Independent Baptist church leader John Rice rejected it, but later Curtis Hutson did accept it.
Finally I tossed my Scofield Reference Bible and went back to an old no notes bible. What a difference in what you perceive it says!
Today, too many people are are spending too much time trying to prove the first chapters of the Bible, and too much time trying to fit in the last book of the Bible.
They seem to forget the most important part is between the first and last.
After a lifetime of looking at these things, I am a proponent of premillennialism. At the same time I believe determining these doctrines with absolute certainty will only be known from the new kingdom looking back. So, I like to have a working knowledge of the major perspectives.
Paul’s writing indicates a rapture. The arguments are over when it occurs. My sense is that there is first a gathering and then a return.
It makes sense to me to consolidate your forces before you attack.
I have nothing against the rapture theory and it appears that
Paul was talking about live people meeting the Lord in the air
in thesolonians.
However in 1 Corinthians 15:35 to 58 Paul discredits what he said
in thesolonians, so it appears to me that no one except Paul is doing
the discrediting.
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