Skip to comments.PRE- OR POST-TRIB RAPTURE? (ORIGINAL)
Posted on 05/14/2019 12:13:01 PM PDT by fwdude
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Ping. Interesting, but it still does not convince me that the church is getting out of the tribulation period, and I have great respect for the late Dave Hunt and the Berean Call ministry.
People always point out that God says Christians are not appointed to wrath, but remember Psalm 91, the whole chapter, but specifically verses 5 through 8:
5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
As always, though, I hope I’m wrong and there IS a “secret” return of Jesus before His second return at the end of this world.
I’ve read Daniel 9. It says the city the people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. That happened in 70AD -the people of the ruler came, but the ruler WILL come later - 135AD.
Then it says “he will put and end to sacrifice and offering”.. that happened in 135 AD When Hadrian halted the sacrifice and put his image up in the temple.
Jesus says when you see what was written about in Daniel - the temple and city being destroyed, then the tribulation will begin, then the tribulation will end with his coming. Whatever agreement that was made was broken by Hadrian and then he stopped the sacrifice.
There isn’t another ruler coming, there is no temple and no sacrifice to stop.
Apparently you missed all those infinitives at the beginning of that prophecy ...
So this Hadrian dude put his image up in the temple, in AD 135, in the temple ... which was completely destroyed in 70 AD?
You are terribly confused ...
ok, touche’ I misspoke, the sacrifices were continuing in the spot where the temple WAS even though it was destroyed in 70AD. Bar Kochba restarted the sacrifice and that was halted for good in 135 AD. Sorry I misspoke. Remember, Jesus said the abomination of desolation would be in the “holy place” not in the temple. Indicating the temple would be gone. So poke fun of the mistake I made if you want, my facts are correct.
The A of D ...
then the tribulation will begin,
He said no such thing ... and Daniel said no such thing ... the A of D is in the middle of the tribulation ... i.e., "but in the middle of the week ..."
then the tribulation will end with his coming.
So you believe His coming was in 70 AD like the preterists? Or are we still in the tribulation? Seems like alot more than 7 years since 70 AD.
I believe the 7 year agreement is the 7 year agreement and the tribulation is the tribulation. You obviously think they are the same. I don’t.
No, I don’t believe his coming was in 70AD. The people came in 70AD but the ruler did not. Only a roman general came in 70AD, not the ruler.
The city and temple were destroyed in 70AD and the ruler who WILL come came in 135AD and stopped the sacrifices.
And regarding your mocking of that - “At the former Temple sanctuary he (Hadrian) installed two statues, one of Jupiter, another of himself. In an attempt to erase any memory of Judea or Ancient Israel”
That was the abomination of desolation. Set up in 135 AD. in the holy place - where the temple once stood.
“Sounds like two Second Comings.”
Correct. When Christ returns to earth at Mount Olives, at that time according to scripture he separates the sheep from the goats from the four corners of the earth. If that’s the same event as the gathering in the air of the Church, the sheep would be gone in the air already, there wouldn’t be any left on earth to gather. Clearly the gathering in the air is for the saints of this age/administration and is a separate event from Christ’s return to Mount Olives. Plus, the date of Christ’s return to Mount Olives will be calculated and well known, 1260 days from the Abomination of Desolation, or halfway through the great tribulation, which is hardly like the “thief in the night” or the “twinkling of an eye” description of Christ’s return in Thessalonians and Corinthians.
Can you imagine meeting an early Christian martyr in Heaven and they ask you how you were martyred and you answer “Well I was in the WalMart shopping center and this lady ran into me with her basket full of food and .....well, here I am”
The “holy place” is the inner sanctuary ... the holy of holies ... so yes ... it is in the temple.
The time period for the A of D of necessity is 3.5 years after the start of the covenant.
The math for the preterist position has never added up ...
You are ignoring that Jesus said: “This Generation” and also “some standing here today” with him would see him return. Please read the bible with the mindset that neither God nor Christ can lie, so ALL UNDERSTANDING must be based on their words. If it cannot, then it MUST be discarded.
Please read the history of the Roman conquest of Jerusalem in 70AD and learn of the absolute desolation the befell on that city at that time.
Actually winslow, nobody believed in what is commonly called “covenant theology” or “reformed theology” until the last couple of centuries. True, covenant theology is older than dispensational theology but in terms of a church that has been around for 2000 years, all of these are relatively new systems.
Having said that, the modern preterist theory is the newest of them all.
Well written and includes so many Scripture passages that it amazes me how some people can still deny that the Rapture WILL happen before the Tribulation. In fact, I can easily see how the Rapture might start the whole seventieth week of Daniel. When millions of people suddenly disappear there has to be a “sellable” explanation for it to settle the shear panic that will ensue. I can see how the Antichrist could be ushered in spewing signs and wonders in order to sell his lie which will be convincing enough to deceive the world into following him. For all we know, he could say it was aliens!
The tribulation that believers should expect to experience in this world is the persecution and trials that originate from unbelievers who are influenced by Satan and who attack all that is good and holy because they hate Almighty God. THE Tribulation, on the other hand, is GOD'S wrath poured out upon the world and those who hate and rebel against Him. It will be calamity and destruction unlike this world has EVER seen before. Jesus comes BEFORE that begins to take believers out because "God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." (I Thess. 5:9) Jesus is our deliverer from the coming wrath. (I Thess. 1:10). That's the difference.
In Rev 5, the souls under that alter ask, "How long?", clearly showing God's wrath hasn't started yet. Actually, God's wrath doesn't occur until the first bowl of wrath, right after the seventh and LAST trumpet.
Rapture actually IS found in the Bible. It comes from the Latin meaning "caught up". Scripture talks about believers being "caught up" to be with the Lord:
The Greek word is harpazó: to seize, catch up, snatch away. The term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17"we will be caught up", (Latin: rapiemur).
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