"I condemn Agape and Chionia to be burnt alive." ~ April 3, AD 303

Gloria Romanorum ^ | April 3, 2017 | Florentius

[RedStateRocker]

What someone else considers apostasy is different from saying ‘they killed them for being Christians’. I mean I don’t care what someone believes, but if they need to break the laws society considers vital to maintaining order they can’t really claim ‘persecution’.

I don’t care if someone’s religion REQUIRES them to stop in the street and pray towards Mecca, if they get run over that’s their problem.

[A strike]

That doesn’t appear to be the case here, where the authorities were all about demanding obeisance to Rome and renouncing Christianity.

[RedStateRocker]

I didn’t base what I wrote on what you wrote.

My point is that the vast majority of these ‘persecutions’ were because people wouldn’t worship the Emperor, *not* because they professed Jesus.

Just like I don’t even care what someone else believes, but if their faith requires something that (I and many others have been brought up to believe) harms society, or failing to do something that everyone considers an obligation, then who is to blame?

Few were killed for being Christians, many were killed for not worshiping the emperor.

[YogicCowboy]

They refused to worship the Emperor because they were Christians. Your argument is sophistry.

Many pantheists had no problem with adding to their repertoire of gods for worship; some in fact considered it prudent.

Paul used that very concept when he addressed the people with their idol, To the Unknown God.

The exclusivity of the Gospel cannot be logically separated from the refusal to worship the Emperor.

[YogicCowboy]

See 24.

P.S. Thank you for placing Anno Domini before the date.

[Mrs. Don-o]

It depends on whether you think being a Christian inherently excludes the worship of the purported gods of the polis.

If it does --- then yes, they ere executed for being Christians.

[rollo tomasi]

Emperor Decius ordered everyone (Jews were exempted because their religion was “permitted”) to make a sacrifice to the Roman gods during specific periods and receive an official certificate proving they did from the witnesses appointed by the magistrates. Christians throughout the Empire were executed for refusing or imprisoned until they made the sacrifice. A lot went into hiding, and a lot “took the mark”/signed the libellus right away.

[Rocky Mountain Wild Turkey]

Yep. Exactly.

The Scripture stating ITSELF that it is NOT "Scripture alone"....

Just. W O W.

[Albion Wilde]

bump

[Antoninus]

P.S. Thank you for placing Anno Domini before the date.

The alternative (BCE and CE) is just stupid.

[Antoninus]

Well I should say unless you’re a slave in the Roman Empire. By the time of its fall, Rome contained more slaves than citizens.

Can you provide a source for that stat? I don't believe it's true.

[Antoninus]

I mean I don’t care what someone believes, but if they need to break the laws society considers vital to maintaining order they can’t really claim ‘persecution’.

Uhhh, the laws were specifically written to make it impossible for Christians to obey them. The empire-wide persecutions of Decius, Valerian and Diocletian/Gallerius all included new edicts which forced people to sacrifice to the pagan pantheon.

[Antoninus]

Few were killed for being Christians, many were killed for not worshiping the emperor.

You can't separate the two -- and those who promulgated the laws knew that quite well.

[Antoninus]

A lot went into hiding, and a lot “took the mark”/signed the libellus right away.

And there were a lot who didn't make the sacrifice but who purchased a fraudulent certificate (libellus) that said they'd made the sacrifice. If I remember correctly, those in the latter category were also considered "traditores."

[Antoninus]

It depends on whether you think being a Christian inherently excludes the worship of the purported gods of the polis.

I think it has generally been agreed since the time of Christ that someone who worships the Holy Trinity as well as the pagan pantheon is not a Christian but a syncretist heretic. It is thought that the Roman emperor Alexander Severus and his mother Julia Mamaea considered Christ as a god among the others in their pantheon. They were never considered Christians.

[DarkWaters]

Not really, just look at the time Christ came to his people and periods even before that. The turning over the tables at the temple, the condemnation of those who where charged with passing on the scriptures and its teachings, because it was their own version and not His even to the outside observer they would have some difficulty distinguishing that at least at first. Their hypocrisy, washing only the outside of the dish but never the inside as our Lord said.

People have a free will, they are free to choose God or to reject him even in His own Church. Right now Our Lord is chastising his Church by giving us exactly what we wanted for some time which is one of the worst chastisement he can send along and in conjunction with the worst one he can throw upon his people, giving us bad priests via the homosexual culture which directly comes from the contraceptive mentality of the laity, hence the form of punishment. No one should be really surprised by all of this, read the old testament and look what happened to our Lord.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Amen.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I think that's exactly right. The Catholic laity, taken a a whole, has either tolerated or demanded clergy who were as slack as possible about the Moral Law as regards sexuality, and would scarcely tolerate a priest who said one peep about contraception.

Andwe got what we wanted: priests who think sexual morality is "de minimis" and that there is no normal, natural and God-designed connection between intercourse and procreation. To such "Catholics" sex = mutually self-gratifying physical relations, and love=lust=love.

So now we've got sexual predators in the rector, in the chancery, and in the Vatican. And we've got academic wretches like "Rev" Timothy Radcliffe, "OP", teaching, and being promoted for teaching, that sodomy can be eucharistic.

We asked for it. The Abomination of Desolation is set up in the Temple of the Lord.

[Antoninus]

We asked for it. The Abomination of Desolation is set up in the Temple of the Lord.

It should be pointed out that the mainline protestant churches demanded the same thing and are a few steps ahead of us. At least our monsters are still hidden behind empty words and promises to root out sexually depraved behavior. The Anglicans and others are right out-front about it, to the point where denying the doctrine of sexual profligacy is considered a sin.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Agreed.

In some ways, hypocrisy is better than open shamelessness.

"Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue."