Holocaust victims and Queen Mother posthumously baptised by Mormons

The Guardian ^ | 12-21-2017 | AP Staff

[ealgeone]

Catholics do not “pray to dead humans instead of using the direct line to God the Father.”

Do Roman Catholics not believe their prayers to Mary make their prayers to God more effective?

[ealgeone]

Catholics do not “pray to dead humans instead of using the direct line to God the Father.”

The Hail Mary disagrees with you.

The Consecration Prayer to Mary disagrees with you.

[trebb]

You mean nobody prays to Mary, St. Francis and others????

You don't pray to "The Saints" and ask them to "intercede"?

How was my comment "false witness"?

I was raised in the Catholic Church until my teens and have a lot of Catholic friends - and either I and they are all wrong because of really bad messaging, or you do pray to the saints - dead mortals.

[Campion]

The problem with what you said is the "instead of". It isn't "instead of," and claiming that "instead of" as Catholic teaching is false witness.

There's no functional difference between asking a saint in heaven and asking someone on earth to pray for you. Paul asks people to pray for him at several points in Scripture. He presumably knew about this "direct line to the Father" of which you speak, didn't he?

[Campion]

Do Roman Catholics not believe their prayers to Mary make their prayers to God more effective?

Do you not see that there's a gigantic difference between that and praying to saints "instead of" praying to God?

A bottle of gas-line antifreeze in your tank at every fillup in the winter will help to prevent water from freezing up and blocking your gas line. That's a good thing. You go try to run your car on gas-line antifreeze *instead of* gasoline and get back to me on how well it works.

[Biggirl]

Please, a few days before Christmas?

Merry Christmas!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain.

First, it is necessary to distinguish between two different senses if prayer. Only when applied to our prayer to God, is it adoration.

As you know from having been a Catholic, only God is to be adored. Adoring anyone except God is strictly forbidden.

Second, our spiritual relationship with other members of the Body of Christ is not at all broken off by death. Jesus said that in reality Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead, and God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Thus we realize we are in loving, living spiritual fellowship with those who have gone on before.

We do not relate to them instead of Christ. We relate them IN Christ.

We are all in Christ and He in us.

Tagline.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Since you are a person of very sincere Christian belief, and would never want to bear false witness against anyone else, I think I ought to be more specific about where the false witness was.

First, as I explained and you surely understand, Jesus makes it clear that the faithful departed are not dead. (Matt 22:32 and Mark 12:26). They are still members of the Body of Christ.

The Body of Christ does not include clumps of dead cells. And just as the cells, tissues, organs, senses, limbs and systems of a body, we are "members of each other" (says St. Paul) and "need each other" (says St. Paul) and thus we share an alive, lively ongoing interrelation of caring for each other and loving each other and, yes, praying for each other.

We do this IN Christ. It's the only way we COULD do it, since Christ is our Life. If it were not for Christ, we would ALL be dead cells, and (St. Paul says it again) if Christ had not risen from the dead, the dead believers would be of all men the most to be pitied, and the deadest of the dead.

Now, the other thing is that you said we pray to these allegedly "dead" persons instead of praying to God.

As somebody who used to be Catholic, reflect for a minute and you will know this is not true. As a Catholic, every Sunday and every Holy say you stood up with the rest of the congregation and prayed or sang the following pray, which you probably knew by heart at the time:

Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to His people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King,
Almighty God and Father,
we worship You, we give You thanks,
we praise You for Your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ,
only Son of the Father,
Lord God , Lamb of God,
You take away the sin of the world:
have mercy on us;
You are seated at the right hand of the Father:
receive our prayer.

For You alone are the Holy One,
You alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High,
Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit,
in the glory of the Father.
Amen.

`

I'm sure you must remember that, often as you recited it aloud.

CAN I HAVE AN AMEN?

`

[Mrs. Don-o]

Please read the rest of my replies on this thread.

That should clear things up.

Please pray for me, ealgeone, as I will for you and yours.

[ealgeone]

Now, the other thing is that you said we pray to these allegedly "dead" persons instead of praying to God.

Actually, Roman Catholicism goes beyond that. I provide the Consecration Prayer to Mary as but one example of Roman Catholicism's deification of Mary.

There is no allowance for the Consecration Prayer to Mary when compared to the Greatest Commandment.

And please...no appeals to arguments from Tim Staples or Scott Hahn.

Consecration to Mary	Greatest Commandment from Matthew 22:37-38 NASB
My Queen and my Mother, I give myself entirely to you; and to show my devotion to you, I consecrate to you this day my eyes, my ears, my mouth, my heart, my whole being without reserve. Wherefore, good Mother, as I am your own, keep me, guard me, as your property and possession. Amen.	37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment.

[ealgeone]

There's no functional difference between asking a saint in heaven and asking someone on earth to pray for you. Paul asks people to pray for him at several points in Scripture. He presumably knew about this "direct line to the Father" of which you speak, didn't he?

Ah...yes there is.

We have no admonitions in the NT to pray to those who've departed this world.

From the Roman Catholic point of view they assume saints are in Heaven. But given the Roman Catholic view of purgatory and the notion that you may or may not be in Heaven after you die...how do they know the "saint" they're praying to is in Heaven?

When Paul asked people to pray for him, he never prayed TO them as the Roman Catholic does to Mary and the other "saints".

Paul never wrote to the believers and instructed them to direct their prayers to Abraham or Moses or Solomon...all of his directions on prayer instructed people to pray TO God.

Christianity and Roman Catholicism....there is a difference.

[Mrs. Don-o]

First, the Consecration to Mary is neither in the Sacraments nor the Liturgy nor the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's notpart of the Deposit of Faith; it is not to be believed de fide; it forms no part of the Creed. You seem to be majoring -- I won't say, in the minors --- at least, in the small-t traditions and devotionals: beautiful, but contingent and auxiliary things.

Many Catholics have never seen it: I'd ever seen it until you printed it, oh, months or years ago now I suppose. But I can't help feeling grateful to you for spreading this lovely devotion.

I love fervent devotional poetry, but it's an acquired taste. If you don't like it, there's no reason to let it bug you further.

As mystics go, I like Julian of Norwich and Caryll Houselander.

Second, devotional language is not in the same genre as doctrinal or liturgical language. It is more like courtly language. Any praise to the Queen Mother is, of course, due to the King. Anyone who is dedicating himself to Mary is doing so only because he is addressing Christ through His first Ambassador, the one He chose for His most intimate companion as well as first disciple for almost all His life on earth.

Third, I don't "get" this stuff about Tim Staples and Scott Hahn. Though I am sure they're great, I have never read their books and articles nor have I even gone to one of their websites. I'm not against them --- far from it! --- they just haven't been on my radar.

Til now.

Anyhow, you seem allergic to them, to the extent you forbid me to allude to them?

Wow. Eye-opening. You're really tempting me to look into it.

Fourth,please accept my sincere "Merry Christmas." I do keep the Christ in Christmas. I also keep Mary in Christmas.

(giggle)

And I also keep the Mass in Christmas.

We Catholics, we go for the whole thing.

[ealgeone]

Oh there's more on Mary from the "doctors" of Roman Catholicism that illustrates the mindset.

I love how Romam Catholics run from things they don't like when they're exposed to the light of day regarding Rome's worship of Mary.

[Mrs. Don-o]

No, Mary is not a goddess and she is not to be adored. She is an outstandingly godly Christian women, though, to the extent that we are all called, like Mary, to be partakers in the Divine nature.

She's so precious, since, humble, saved handmaid that she is, she shows us what that looks like.

If you have a problem with that, don't take it up with me because it is far beyond what I could understand. You might want to take it up with Peter Bar-Jonah:

2 Peter 1:42
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

In any case, if devotion to the Mother of all Christians (Rev 12:17) distracts you from Christ, images of Mary tempt you to bear false witness against other Christians, and St. Louis de Montfort devotionals just endlessly bother you and make you irate, maybe you should leave it alone.

Just leave it alone.

It's not for you, OK?

It's not doing you any good. Pray for me: that'll do you good. And me, too.

---

Merry Christmas!

---

[ealgeone]

No, Mary is not a goddess and she is not to be adored.

She's so precious, since, humble, saved handmaid that she is, she shows us what that looks like.

Mary is just another created person.

If we are to mimic anyone it should be Christ.

5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

10so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:5-11 NASB

If you have a problem with that, don't take it up with me because it is far beyond what I could understand. You might want to take it up with Peter Bar-Jonah:

2 Peter 1:42 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Let's put that verse in context as it has nothing to do with Mary granting us or giving us anything.

1Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence.

4For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 2 Peter 1:1-4 NASB

In any case, if devotion to the Mother of all Christians (Rev 12:17) distracts you from Christ,

Mary is not now, nor has she ever been the "mother of all Christians..."

Your usage of such a term continues to illustrate why Christians say Roman Catholics worship Mary.

...images of Mary tempt you to bear false witness against other Christians, and St. Louis de Montfort devotionals just endlessly bother you and make you irate, maybe you should leave it alone.

Just leave it alone.

When Roman Catholics renounce the Marian dogmas, cease kneeling before the idols of Mary in violation of the commandments against having idols and serving them, praying to the idols, relying upon Mary for salvation, advancing the false promises of apparitions claiming to be Mary, etc....then I will leave it alone.

[ealgeone]

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[Mrs. Don-o]

I can't deny I'm fond of you: you have a literal-mindedness that makes you seem like a very solemn tapir. I suppose if one of our deacons came around with incense, you'd object with earnest indignation because you'd think we were adoring you.

Since we're in agreement, though, that you, Mary, and other creatures are not to be adored, let's rejoice in our agreement.

I know I do.

[ealgeone]

Not sure if “tapir” is a complement or a back handed compliment based on the definition.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Oh, it’s a compliment, coming from me, anyhow. Tapirs are ancient and unique: there’s nothing quite like them.

I think God is fond of tapirs, too.

[trebb]

Apologies and Merry Christmas - He is Born!