Posted on 08/08/2016 2:14:55 PM PDT by NYer
You would like to believe 2, but it’s just simply silly to ponder that idea...that’s like atheistic thoughts. You must a very hard time dealing with so many different parts of scripture, especially parts dealing with prophecy and symbolism and parables.
Mary - one time - asked Jesus to do something.
Jesus - one time - did what He thought best.
End of story.
“You must a very hard time dealing with so many different parts of scripture, especially parts dealing with prophecy and symbolism and parables.”
No. Not at all. You don’t have to make things up to understand and ally Scripture.
Not as interpreted by the Catholic Church. They believe the Scripture.
“They believe the Scripture.”
They took an extra-biblical, pagan idea and tried to hang it on this passage of Scripture.
I believe your statement is untrue.
Do you like telling untruths?
Everything we have is from God - our life, our abilities, our friends and family.
Everything we have we owe to God.
It is only natural to thank God in prayer and ask for His help.
As baptized members of His Church and the Body of Christ, we pray to God for each other and collectively with members of the Church and the Saints who are in Heaven.
Then you should be able to demonstrate if is untrue.
You may wish to read the following from the Bible that differs from your statement. Your comment: “Not in Scripture to ever pray to Mary or any other departed believer. Not in Scripture that any departed believer can hear your prayer to them.
Not in Scripture that any departed believer can answer or influence a prayer.”
The faith of the Church is that the saints are not really dead, but are fully alive in Jesus Christ, who is life itself (John 11:25; 14:6) and the bread of life who bestows life on all who eat his flesh and drink his blood (John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56). The saints are alive in heaven because of the life they have received through their faith in Christ Jesus and through their eating of his body and blood.
The book of Revelation shows the saints worshiping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).
Because they are alive, we believe that we can go to them to intercede for us with God. We do not need to see apparitions or hear their voices in order to believe they will pray for us in heaven. We trust that the saints will accept our requests for help and will present them to Christ for us.
God expects us to pray for one another. We see this in both the Old and New Testaments.
In a dream, God commanded King Abimelech to ask Abraham to intercede for him: “For [Abraham] is a prophet and he will pray for you, so you shall live” (Gen. 20:7). When the Lord is angry with Job’s friends because they did not speak rightly about God, he tells them, “Let my servant Job pray for you because I will accept his [prayer], lest I make a terror on you” (Job 42:8).
Paul wrote to the Romans: “I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you” (Rom. 15:30-32).
James says: “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16-17). Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another. This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God.
The reason that Christians have the power to pray for one another is that each person who is baptized is made a member of the Body of Christ by virtue of the Holy Spirit’s action in baptism (1 Cor. 12:11-13). It is because the Christian belongs to Jesus Christ and is a member of his Body, the Church, that we can make effective prayer.
The reason we pray to the saints is that they are still members of the Body of Christ. Remember, the life which Christ gives is eternal life; therefore, every Christian who has died in Christ is forever a member of the Body of Christ. This is the doctrine which we call the Communion of the Saints. Everyone in Christ, whether living or dead, belongs to the Body of Christ.
From this it follows that a saint in heaven may intercede for other people because he still is a member of the Body of Christ. Because of this membership in Christ, under his headship, the intercession of the saints cannot be a rival to Christ’s mediation; it is one with the mediation of Christ, to whom and in whom the saints form one body.
http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-bible-supports-praying-to-the-saints
The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven, just as they approach God the Father and Jesus Christ the Lord: “But you have approached Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels, and the assembly and church of the firstborn who have been enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and spirits of righteous ones who have been made perfect, and Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood which speaks better than that of Abel” (Heb. 12:22-24).
Some comments:
"The faith of the Church is that the saints are not really dead, but are fully alive in Jesus Christ, who is life itself (John 11:25; 14:6) and the bread of life who bestows life on all who eat his flesh and drink his blood (John 6:35, 48, 51, 53-56). The saints are alive in heaven because of the life they have received through their faith in Christ Jesus and through their eating of his body and blood."
We agree here.
"The book of Revelation shows the saints worshiping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11)"
We agree that this occurred, but there is no evidence in this passage that anyone on earth *prayed to these saints* or that *the saints heard their prayers* or that *any prayer was answered by a saint.*
"Because they are alive, we believe that we can go to them to intercede for us with God. We do not need to see apparitions or hear their voices in order to believe they will pray for us in heaven. We trust that the saints will accept our requests for help and will present them to Christ for us."
Which is simply an opinion apart from Scripture. By this standard, you can believe whatever you wish. A desire or opinion like this does not make the opinion true.
"God commanded King Abimelech to ask Abraham to intercede for him"
Abraham was alive.
"God, he tells them, “Let my servant Job pray for you because I will accept his [prayer], lest I make a terror on you”
Job was alive.
"Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another. This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God."
Praying for one another *to God* is different than *praying to each other.* The latter is not commanded.
" It is because the Christian belongs to Jesus Christ and is a member of his Body, the Church, that we can make effective prayer."
Yet there is not Scripture supporting praying to departed saints. Nor is there any Scripture teaching that departed saints can hear such prayers.
"The reason we pray to the saints is that they are still members of the Body of Christ. "
The reason is simpler than that. Since it is not found in the Bible, nor before 100 AD, it is not part of the Apostle's teaching, but is simply a pagan practice added to the church. Syncretic paganism.
"From this it follows that a saint in heaven may intercede for other people"
No reason to think a departed saint can't pray. That is a different discussion. What we do not find anywhere in Scripture is a command or teaching to pray to a departed saint - nor any Scriptural evidence that a departed saint can hear such prayers. It is made up out of whole cloth.
"The Bible encourages Christians to approach the saints in heaven"
Not once. Not ever in Scripture.
ping: daniel1212 - I know this is an interest of yours.
and who translated the bible Chapter and Verse, the RCC
who kept the bible in print during the middle ages, the RCC
when did your church start? 1500 - 1800’s??
I've translated much of it myself, as have thousands of others, including a great many translations of the complete Scriptures. I have almost 30 of those on my computer.
"who kept the bible in print during the middle ages, the RCC"
God used ordinary men - Jews and some Roman Catholics and for which I'm very grateful.
Can you imagine devoting years of your life to hand copying large books like Job or Ezekiel
"when did your church start? 1500 - 1800’s??"
My Church started in the Councils of God in eternity past. Why do you ask?
I notice your questions have nothing to do with the topic, but I'm grateful for the opportunity to give Glory to God.
Yet no reference in the NT to pray to anyone other than God.
16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.
Romans 15:4
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12
There are multiple other references guiding people to turn to the Word.
I find no reference to pray the "hail mary" in Scripture nor refer to the the rcc catechism.
:)I told my Grandkids as they were watching her.She’s across the river.Go USA.
it is the “Angelic Salutation”
“Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
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