Posted on 07/13/2016 12:29:26 PM PDT by ebb tide
That is not to say that what they believe about the One Creator is all true. Some of it is (for instance that the Creator is also the giver of moral law) and some of it isn't (for instance, they do not believe that God is Love.)
Like the Jews, they do not believe in the divinity of Christ, nor in the Incarnation, nor in the Trinity. Unlike the Jews, they believe explicitly and pointedly false things about Jesus Christ. For instance, the Koran says Jesus ("Isa ibn Maryam") was created in his virgin mother's womb, created like Adam, which makes him 100% creature, and neither son of God nor, really, son of Mary (since by the account of the Koran, she was not a real genetic mother, but rather something like a gestational unit or surrogate --- as if God would do such an insulting thing as surrogacy.)
Muhammad himself was rather an opposite to Christ, point-for-point on every point of their character. If you will kindly read to the end of the section, you will notice this conclusion on the non-Christian religions:
844 (LINK) In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.
Those who portray the Catechism as being broadly pro-Islam haven't even read the section through.
I find a similar error in the idea that the Catechism is a rival to Scripture. It is not. It is based on Scripture. It would make as much sense to say that the Christmas carols we sing in church--- like "O Come All Ye Faithful" --- are rivals to or substitutes for Scripture, when in fact they are the same truths in different words.
Post #41 ~ Another excellent post.
“...the idea that the Catechism is a rival to Scripture.” The CCC is quite obviously based on Scripture as you stated. Almost too obvious, but it needed to be said, and anyone with any familiarity with the CCC would know how often it references the Bible, the Doctors of the Church, Fathers of the Church, etc. and on issues of Doctrine.
Another point you made was, “Muhammad himself was rather an opposite to Christ, point-for-point on every point of their character.” I never thought of that before and it is a very astute observation!
† Dominus vobiscum.†
You may call "bs" as you see fit but just as we are not impressed by Protestant "insights" on Scripture that differ from those of the Church that Jesus Christ founded and is today the oldest continuous human institution on Earth, neither are we moved by your calling "bs" on anything.
We recognize no obligation to satisfy Protestant tastes or critics by citing Scriptural passages as to what the weather may have been on the original Good Friday. If you imagine that ALL religious truth is contained in Scripture, you are probably disagreeing with Scripture itself.
It was clear from the very beginning of the Reformation that Protestants would have no popes. Some were proud of that fact and proclaimed: No Popery! Y'all really had no alternative and thus you were confined to Scripture as your ONLY source of truth. George Washington was our first POTUS. Scriptural reference? No, but true nonetheless. Luther would tack his disagreements to the cathedral door at Wittenberg and marry Sister Katy regardless of BOTH of their vows before God. Scriptural? No, but true nonetheless. Mary died or she did not die. She was conceived without original sin or with it. Scripture is silent. If she died, where was she buried and by whom?
Galatians 1:8KJV: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed." This passage you are misciting as though it means someone is fooled by listening not to "any other gospel" but rather to the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church which was founded by Jesus Crist Himself and with which He promised to remain to the end of the world. BTW, those gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John came into the hands of Reformationists come lately through the Catholic Church because the authors and their gospels were ours in life and ever after. It is good that you rely to some extent on those Scriptures that we provided you.
If I agree with something, I will say so. I haven't.
Now we have reached the stage of boredom that is the usual end of these discussions between Church and Reformation. Have the last word if you like because I am not interested in prolonging this.
Did the Holy Spirit hire you as His press secretary? I did not think so.
“I find a similar error in the idea that the Catechism is a rival to Scripture.
82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”
Your ccc says it’s equal, but if Scripture clearly says different you use the ccc, so in reality the ccc over rides Scripture. That’s why you follow and every changing tradition that claims it’s the same as Christ instituted 2000 years ago. Your religion has had so many changes that you wouldn’t know original tradition if you seen it. The only thing that hasn’t changed has been the Word of God. You can argue all you want about not worshiping the same god as the Muslims, but your church is building bridges to them and your pope is kissing their Koran and butts as quickly as he can. Keep following that changed and flawed tradition and you will live Revelation 2:18-29.
“Did the Holy Spirit hire you as His press secretary? I did not think so.”
YES HE DID!!!
Your lack of biblical knowledge is truly showing. Actually any born again believer is indeed and ambassador of the God head and that includes the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 5:20 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
20 For Christ therefore we are ambassadors, God as it were exhorting by us. For Christ, we beseech you, be reconciled to God.
Scripture does not teach, or even mention, a doctrine of “Scripture alone.” To the contrary, St. Paul for instance repeatedly exhorts Christian believers to hold fast to the Traditions and example of the Apostles: in other words the oral teachings and the actual practices, whether written or not.
Scripture is an instrument which was, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, fashioned by the Church, and not vice versa. That is to say: the Church gave us Scripture; Scripture did not give us the Church.
Rest well!
I will and you also, God Bless
Numbers 6:24-26 King James Version (KJV)
24 The Lord bless thee, and keep thee:
25 The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
26 The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
“That is to say: the Church gave us Scripture; Scripture did not give us the Church.”
WOW!!!
Actually Scripture is the “WORD” of God thus the “WORD” is God and He gave all things to include the Church. Are you JW they changed John 1:1 also.
John 1:1 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
“Scripture does not teach, or even mention, a doctrine of “Scripture alone.” To the contrary, St. Paul for instance repeatedly exhorts Christian believers to hold fast to the Traditions and example of the Apostles: in other words the oral teachings and the actual practices, whether written or not.”
Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. (2 Thess 2:15)
Notice that it says by oral statement or letter, so if the Epistle’s of the Apostles disagree with your tradition which they do your ccc (tradition) is wrong. Also tradition can be what day of the week, time, or little things like that also which really don’t amount to nothing when we speak of eternal salvation.
My teacher is Jesus Christ (Matthew 23:8) I try to emulate him. With that being said he always used Scripture to defeat the Devil never once did he use tradition. Our fight is against the Devil, so your man tools will not get the job done (Ephesians 6:12). If Jesus the Son of God had to use Scripture to defeat the Devil then I must also. Words of God.
1 Peter 4:17 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
17 For the time is, that judgment should begin at the house of God. And if first at us, what shall be the end of them that believe not the gospel of God?
2 Peter 1:19 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
19 And we have the more firm prophetical word: whereunto you do well to attend, as to a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
1 John 2:14 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
14 I write unto you, babes, because you have known the Father. I write unto you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and you have overcome the wicked one.
1 John 2:26 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
26 These things have I written to you, concerning them that seduce you.
2 Peter 3:16 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.
Your tradition has you bowing and kissing statues of wood, plastic, and stone thinking you can save yourself by eating something all of which are completely against the Word of God (OT Scriptures, Gospels and Epistles). Your tradition talks about a queen of heaven, but the only queen of heaven is in Jeremiah 7:18 and unfortunately that is exactly what the RCC has made the Mother of Jesus into through warped tradition.
You have been forewarned by Holy Scripture. When standing in front of that Great White Throne I promise you the ccc will not hold water.
Scripture is the Word of God only in a different sense. A non-personal sense, since Scripture is not a person. Scripture (an object) does not desire, choose, act, intend, judge. God does these things, and we do too, since we, like God, are persons.
Men of the Church, acting under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and writing in and for he Church, wrote the New Testament, as one of the many precious instruments of salvation which God gave the Church.
We know this because there was a Church for many decades before there was a New Testament. The Church produced the New Testament, not the other way around.
Much a we love, revere, and venerate the Scriptures as the Word of God, we must ponder the fact that nowhere in Scripture does it say "Scripture ALONE."
It is the Church which is called "the pillar and foundation of the Truth."
That is why the Church had the authority to tell us what books comprise the sacred texts of the Bible, and which do not: in other words, to determine a canon of Scripture.
Without a written Gospel, there would still be a Church. Without the Church, there would be no written Gospel.
“I think you’ve made a category error here. Actually,Jesus Christ is the Word of God. Jesus Christ IS God. Scripture is not God-— although it IS Sacred (”Sacred Scripture”) because it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.”
You say I made and error here, but offered no Scriptural proof to refute my evidence John 1:1.
That’s ok this is a good point to teach on let’s start with.
John 1:1
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
All three Greek words here used are Logos “Word” as defined below. God is Theos if you need that broke down we need to start back at Matthew or Genesis.
Short definition is a word (Bible Scripture), Speech or divine utterance well since the only recording devices of the day was writing again it’s (Bible Scripture). The inspired Word of the Holy Spirit is a divine utterance or speech from God since God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are ONE God.
To reword it in simpler terms:
IN the beginning was the Utterance/Speech, and the Utterance/Speech was with God, the Utterance/Speech was God.
If God spoke to you right now would that be God or would you say well it wasn’t actually God, but only his voice?
That was at the beginning and at the perfect time God Uttered/Spoke to man and the man wrote the Utterance/Speech onto stone, papyrus, or paper and thus we have the Holy Scripture.
Strong’s Concordance
logos: a word (as embodying an idea), a statement, a speech
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: logos
Short Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy
Definition: a word, speech, divine utterance, analogy.
[3056 (lógos) is a common term (used 330 times in the NT) with regards to a person sharing a message (discourse, “communication-speech”). 3056 (lógos) is a broad term meaning “reasoning expressed by words.”]
II. In several passages in the writings of John;denotes the essential Word of God, i. e. the personal (hypostatic) wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in the creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world’s life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man’s salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah and shone forth conspicuously from his words and deeds: John 1:1, 14; (1 John 5:7 Rec.),Revelation 19:13 (although the interpretation which refers this passage to the hypostatic is disputed by some, as by Baur, Neutest. Theologie, p. 216f). Respecting the combined Hebrew and Greek elements out of which this conception originated among the Alexandrian Jews, see especially Lücke, Comm. üb.
“Scripture is the Word of God only in a different sense.”
Oh you mean like God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, but still God. Sorry God takes on many forms there is even a reference to the 7 Spirits of God, but all are God.
“ A non-personal sense, since Scripture is not a person.”
Funny. part of the definition is exactly opposite of your answer, think we will go with personal since God is so personal that Christ considers us his bride, now that’s personal.
“the personal (hypostatic) wisdom and power in union with God”
“Scripture (an object) does not desire, choose, act, intend, judge. God does these things, and we do too, since we, like God, are persons.”
First and foremost God is a spirit Jesus Christ was a person yeah I know you can’t wrap your head around it, but it’s scriptural whether you understand it or not. John 4:24
Since the Scripture is God’s voice and thought it does indeed do all the above because it is God. I know that RC’s put God into a little wafer, but in reality he’s much bigger. The Scripture you read in your Bible is just a copy of the real thing. Hebrews 8:5 and 9:23
“We know this because there was a Church for many decades before there was a New Testament. The Church produced the New Testament, not the other way around.”
So for 4,000 years Jesus hadn’t become flesh on this earth just like the Scripture hadn’t become paper yet did He exist? John 1:2, Gal 4:4, Eph 1:10
So IAW you and the RCC just because it wasn’t wrote down for us puny humans to see means it didn’t exist. Well then I guess when it says before the foundation of the world it must mean before the RCC acknowledged it? Matt 25:34, Eph 1:4, Eph 2:10, 1 Pet 1:20, and Rev 13:8.
Titus 1:3 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
3 But hath in due times manifested his word in preaching, which is committed to me according to the commandment of God our Saviour:
Obtw “New Testament” means New Covenant which was completed when Jesus said “IT IS FINISHED” there was no more to add the only thing needed was for it to be put to paper. The history of the New Covenant did indeed come after the Resurrection after Christ, but it still existed it just hadn’t been revealed. 1 Tim 6:15, Rom 5:6
“The Church produced the New Testament, not the other way around.”
God produced the oracles of God and used the Jews to bring them to light.
Romans 3:1-2 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
3 What advantage then hath the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?
2 Much every way. First indeed, because the words of God were committed to them.
“The Church produced the New Testament, not the other way around.”
“It is the Church which is called “the pillar and foundation of the Truth.”
You’re right, but not for the right reasons. The Church is God through Jesus Christ and yes He produced the writings of the New Testament. Again, read the Scripture below Christ is the head of the body. The body is the born again saved Christians all one Tent, Temple, Church.
Colossians 1:18 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
18 And he is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he may hold the primacy:
Church which is called “the pillar and foundation of the Truth.”
IAW Scripture the pillar and foundation of Truth is God through Jesus Christ, so we finally agree.
John 14:6 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.
John 1:14
John 1:17
John 17:17 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
17 Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth.
A lot of truths there and all of them point to God through Jesus Christ.
“Much a we love, revere, and venerate the Scriptures as the Word of God, we must ponder the fact that nowhere in Scripture does it say “Scripture ALONE.”
Q. I’ll repeat it again who do we imitate?
A. Jesus Christ
Q. What did Christ use to defeat Satan?
A. Scripture, NOT tradition
“Without a written Gospel, there would still be a Church. Without the Church, there would be no written Gospel”
Actually no because God would NOT have sent Jesus Christ and without Christ God would not have sent the Holy Spirit and thus the Church would have never been born. The whole point of the Gospel is to worship God through Jesus Christ. You and or your religion have twisted just like the Pharisees did the Sabbath. The man wasn’t made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for the man.
I don’t know how to put this gently Mrs. D, but to say “Without a written Gospel, there would still be a Church” makes you sound so ignorant of the purpose of the entire Bible that you really need to rethink Christianity as a whole.
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