Posted on 04/09/2016 7:13:54 AM PDT by Salvation
Some will refer to Hebrews 12:1, which refers to the saints in heaven as a “great cloud of witnesses.” But the context there is that they are witnesses to us of their life and the power of faith to transform, not that they are watching us like spectators.
We have no Biblical evidence they can hear us.
Just wishful thinking on the part of roman catholicism.
Even in my old age I continue to become aware of things I should have known since childhood. I recently had a minor epiphany, deo gratias, and came to see that I have esteemed myself too highly for my entire life. It’s awfully embarrassing, but the only alternative to admitting it is denying it, which is not acceptable.
Many times throughout my life I have thought I was following logic, when in fact I was only following my own inadequate understanding. That, of course, led me into error. These errors have only been corrected (And who knows how many remain uncorrected?) as I have gained additional knowledge and experience. If there is a general principle here, it is that what a person is at a given point in his life limits what he is capable of understanding correctly. This is not to deny that other things also bear heavily on our ability to “get” things. If lust has a man in the Earl of Hell’s weskit pocket, you’re not going to persuade him through logic that fornication is a sin and should be avoided. Not without some divine intervention, anyway.
All that is by way of leading to this:
“To follow catholic logic...if the departed saints can hear our prayers they are aware of our sins.”
You are not following Catholic logic. Further, your attempt to use logic tries to place limits on God’s power.
With God, all things are possible. If He says the saints will hear our prayers but not see our sins, then that’s the way it is.
As Mark Twain said, it isn’t what people don’t know that gets them into trouble; it is what they do know that just isn’t so.
“This statement completely takes away the argument of the catholic that the departed saints are always watching us.”
There is a lot of variation around the globe on minor, non-doctrinal matters. I was never taught that the saints are “always watching us.” I don’t think that is something that Catholics are required to believe, so if you want to blame Catholics for that I can blame Baptists for snake-handling. (The point there being that Baptists are not snake-handlers.)
“Hence they would be able to hear our prayers.”
If God says so, they can hear our prayers even if they are not “always watching us.” Saint Jude may not be paying any attention to me at all, and yet if I ask him to pray for me, he will hear that and take my prayer to God. Or is this beyond God’s ability to perform?
“If they can hear our prayers they are aware of our sins.”
Who says? God says they can hear our prayers; what man dares say He must for any reason allow them to see our sins? What man dares say He must do anything?
“You’re proving with these posts what we’ve been saying about the false teaching of Rome regarding the notion of praying to the departed saints”
All she is proving—or rather, what you are proving for her—is that “The attempt to make God just in the eyes of sinful men will always lead to error.” (William L. Brown)
Let’s review the erroneous assumptions you made in your post.
1. If the departed saints can hear our prayers they are aware of our sins.
This is neither a part of revelation nor supported by logic. If God wants the saints to hear our prayers without seeing our sins, then it is so.
2. Catholics argue that the saints are always watching us.
Maybe some Catholics do, but others don’t, and it is not a necessary element of Catholicism.
3. If the saints aren’t always watching us, then they can’t hear our prayers.
Isn’t it fairly obvious that to say this is to place limits on God’s power? For God to allow saints to hear requests for intercession even though they aren’t always watching would be only a minor miracle. If God can create the universe, He can do that.
“Just wishful thinking on the part of Roman Catholicism.”
If there were as much proof of the existence of bigfoot as there is of the intercession of saints, it would be “settled science.”
“Many unbelievers walk into churches which are filled with the Holy Spirit, and think they can blend in by pretending to be innocent and friendly. They are like the King who wore the invisible new coat, oafishly thinking nobody sees through their charade, when they are the most exposed for all to see through their pretense.”
Kind of like people of the Satanic left who come to FR thinking they’re deceiving the dumb conservatives.
Could you provide proof of this?
“Could you provide proof of this?”
Which of the many assertions I made do you wish me to prove?
Is God capable of all things? Yes.
Does He contradict what He's revealed to us in His Word? No.
We have no biblical example of directing our prayers to anyone who has departed this world. IIRC all of the prayers in the Bible are directed to Him.
No prayers to Mary. None to mom. None to Peter or Abraham or Isaiah.
Proof of the intercession of the saints as you asserted.
Proof of the intervention of the saints as you asserted.
“Does He contradict what He’s revealed to us in His Word?”
There are at least two things to be considered in that context.
1. There is considerable disagreement regarding just what it is that He has revealed.
2. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Divine Revelation is restricted to the Bible.
“We have no biblical example of directing our prayers to anyone who has departed this world”
In Revelation 5:8, John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”
I am suddenly pressed for time, so I will have to log off.
I would note though the Word is the only writing we have that is inspired by the Hoky Spirit.
“I would note though the Word is the only writing we have that is inspired by the Holy Spirit.”
Does that mean that the Holy Spirit played no role in Martin Luther’s theses?
Any teaching or writing by anyone needs to be compared to the Word. That would be the only way to determine if the Holy Spirit was moving someone.
It it agrees with the Word then yes.....the Holy Spirit played a role.
If it disagrees....the Holy Spirit would not contradict the Word.
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