Posted on 01/01/2016 10:28:21 AM PST by NRx
“The Scriptures do command the Israelites to bow before the Ark, which had two prominent images of cherubim on it. In Psalms 99:5”
Wow. This seems disingenuous. Even if Psalm 99 has in mind bowing before the ark of the covenant, no one got to see the ark of the covenant except the High Priest once each year. And further, God actually met with men there. People would be bowing to God, not the ark.
“If you look at the passage in question (2nd Kings 18:4), you will see that the Bronze Serpent was not destroyed simply because people honored it, but because they had made it into a serpent God, called ‘Nehushtan.’”
The author fails to acknowledge the possibility and danger of helpful images and icons being turned into idols. He simply refuses to admit it does happen or has ever happened and what the Biblical remedy to such idolatry is.
I enjoy beautiful art. I enjoy movies. I appreciate images like the Christmas decorations which may include images depicting Christ, Mary, Joseph, and others at Christ’s birth. But, we do not bow down to these images, pray toward them, or offer incense or sacrifice toward them.
It is not merely the idea that God or some lesser deity IS an object that makes these acts become idolatry. (By “lesser deity”, I am referring to supposed deities that do not truly exist but that some think exist.) Idolaters may very well know that the image itself is merely a depiction of the deity they are intending to worship.
While the author is correct that God does work through objects consecrated to His use, he fails to justify the acts of bowing, praying, and sacrificing toward such objects. And he refuses to accept the clear warning of scripture that it is possible for once God-ordained objects to become idols that need to be removed and destroyed.
It is abominable that such acts are advocated and justified by false teaching such as this because they lead God’s people to sin in order to promote commandments of men rather than the commandments of God.
Okay, so I looked it up.
I think the Catholics are right. Your interpretation is bogus.
The Ark is referred to as “the Footstool” of God’s feet:
“Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building” (1 Chronicles 28:2).
“We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool. Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength” (131[132]:7-8).
And the Psalms specifically command us to worship (literally, bow before) the Ark:
“Exalt ye the Lord our God, and worship the footstool of His feet; for He is holy” (Psalm 98[99]:5).
And we see that the Israelites in fact did bow before the Ark:
“And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the Ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads” (Joshua 7:6).
And the Ark was carried in processions. It is possible that after the building of the Temple these processions ceased, but prior to that they did happen. We have records of them in Scripture, particularly involving David dancing before the Ark as it was brought into Jerusalem.
Your comment is worth the amount of effort you took to post it. Nothing. Waste of space.
“St. Gregory the Dialogist (Pope of Rome ca. 590-604), spoke of Icons as being Scripture to the illiterate:”
We can hope and pray that 2016 will bring literacy to the faithful. They shouldn’t have to keep waiting for the inspired Scriptures any longer.
Yeah, exactly.
But you don’t even need to know the history to understand the clear meaning of Psalm 99:5.
The only way you could misunderstand it is if you have some sort of Asperger’s syndrome with regard to scriptural interpretation. It’s this odd failure to see meaning.
Every Church has small children who cannot read, but even adults need images. We are surrounded by them. The only question is what images will we surround ourselves with? Images of Christ, the Saints, and Biblical scenes remind us of the sacred and inspire us to pray.
What historical facts do you have in mind? I think most Protestant Biblical Scholars would agree that this psalm is clear about the Ark. Look at verse 1, just for starters:
“The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the cherubim; let the earth be moved.”
What do you suppose that is in reference to?
I have in mind the ones you mentioned in your post.
To me the image of worshipping at his footstool is enough to get the meaning across. Clearly the footstool is a means of worship, not an object of worship.
In my opinion — I am no scholar by any stretch — you’d have to go out of your way to miss the meaning of this scripture.
You didn’t answer the question. Clearly, saying God sits between the cherubim is a reference to the mercy seat on the Ark... there is no question about it. Given that, when it talks later about the “footstool of His feet”, and especially in light of the many references to the Ark being the footstool of God’s feet, there is no question that this is referring to the Ark again. And so when it it says “bow before the footstool of His feet”, this is saying to bow before the Ark. Even if the Ark was in the Holy of Holies, the Israelites knew it was there, and this was the focus of their worship... they prayed in this direction, and Knew that God was specially present there.
Just for the record, this article in the OP is from the Eastern Orthodox Church. Now it does cite from a Pope and nothing in it contradicts (in fact it could just as well explain the Catholic position) what I confess as a Catholic, but for the record, we should acknowledge that this article is a presentation of the faith of the Eastern Orthodox Church.
Okay, thanks buddy. You’re just as nutty as the other guy I was responding to.
I swear, the challenge with religion is trying to find one whose adherents don’t annoy you to death.
Right, I get that. It’s not technically Catholic; it’s Orthodox. The point is that it’s not a Protestant interpretation of that scripture.
Ok, yes, it is not a Protestant anti-Icon interpretation. Agree.
“for the record, we should acknowledge that this article is a presentation of the faith of the Eastern Orthodox Church.”
Yes, I am aware of that. My assertion is that both groups are continuing to do what God forbids.
It never ceases to amaze me how in sync some versions of protestantism are with Mohammedanism. We last dealt with the Mohammedan inspired heresy of iconoclasm in 787 at the 7th Ecumenical Council. Most of the elites of the Empire had fallen into the heresy and the Patriarchs had either followed them or kept quiet for fear of reprisals. The Patriarchate of the West, Rome, held firm for Orthodoxy and supported the veneration of icons.
The council was held at Nicea. 367 bishops were present. Rome triumphed over the running dogs for the Mohammedans. Here is the declaration of the Fathers of the Council:
“We define that the holy icons, whether in color, mosaic, or some other material, should be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on the sacred vessels and liturgical vestments, on the walls, furnishings, and in houses and along the roads, namely the icons of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ, that of our Lady the Theotokos, those of the venerable angels and those of all saintly people. Whenever these representations are contemplated, they will cause those who look at them to commemorate and love their prototype. We define also that they should be kissed and that they are an object of veneration and honor (timitiki proskynisis), but not of real worship (latreia), which is reserved for Him Who is the subject of our faith and is proper for the divine nature, ... which is in effect transmitted to the prototype; he who venerates the icon, venerated in it the reality for which it stands.”
This controversy was over hundreds of years before anyone had ever heard of the protestant heresy of iconoclasm!
Kolokotronis:
Thanks for the ping. Thanks for recognizing the Church of Rome and the Bishop of Rome (Pope) [you use Patriarch of the West] held firm.
What most don’t realize is the iconoclast heresy was ultimately rooted in the Muslim disdain for not only icons, but that Christ was incarnate.
Seven centuries removed from the apostles and SUDDENLY it is settled. Ha, ha, ha.
Even while the apostles were alive, they had to reprove error in the church and call the church to repentance.
All of these things were clearly added after the apostles were gone.
Nothing in the Bible provides for churches to meet in special buildings with special art.
What the apostles left for us to follow does not harmonize with “veneration” of icons and relics, regardless of how many clergy people say so today or seven centuries after the apostles were dead.
It was wrong to bow to the apostles when they were alive. It is wrong to bow to images of them now when they are dead.
“What most don’t realize is the iconoclast heresy was ultimately rooted in the Muslim disdain for not only icons, but that Christ was incarnate.”
What most people do not realize is that opposition to idolatry in Christendom originates from the Bible. And the deep slavish devotion to practicing and promoting such idolatry comes from putting traditions of men above the word of God just like Christ’s enemies who murdered Him.
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