Don’t Apologize for Apologetics

Aletelia ^ | November 11, 2015 | FR DWIGHT LONGENECKER

[kinsman redeemer]

The following is taken from : Mary, Mother of Salvation
How to Explain the "Co-Redemptrix" to Evangelicals

(The title alone causes me to giggle...)

Here's the LINK

There's a memorable line in a movie where a boy is breaking up with a girl, and she feels used. She cries out, "I am not a tissue! You can't just throw me away!" To have used Mary to accomplish the Incarnation and then forget about her is to treat her like a tissue. God doesn't work like that. When Catholics recognize Mary as Mediatrix and Co-Redemptrix, we acknowledge that God's work in a person's life transforms them eternally. Mary was given a new name at the Annunciation: Full of Grace. The new name indicates an ontological change. She was changed into a new person with a new role forever.

The fathers of the Second Vatican Council taught:

[The] motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, 62)

Understanding Mary's role in redemption sheds light on her Son, but it also sheds light on each one of her Son's disciples. He completed in her what he wants to complete in us—total transformation into his image. Your Evangelical brother or sister may not agree with you that the Mother of God is Mediatrix and Co-Redeemer, but the proper explanation of the titles should at least give him a new appreciation of Mary and a new appreciation of the wonders God has in store for each of his sons and daughters.

(emphases is mine)

Roman Catholics have some splanin' to do, friend. This article tells them how to explain this heresy to people like me - but the explanation you have to give is not to me.

[verga]

Why are you wasting your breath? His middle name is “IKE” I know everything.

[kinsman redeemer]

Wow!

NYer Asked for evidence of an allegation about the Holy Roman Catholic Church's belief that Mary is Co-Redemptrix.

You say that's a "waste of (his) breath"?

...seems important to me - At least while there is a breath.

[ealgeone]

Those pigeons must love it when you show up to play chess.....they see a pigeon coming.

Nyer asked for proof and got it.

Checkmate.

[ealgeone]

Wow. When they have to come up with that they know they’re way off base.

[daniel1212]

I have never seen Catholics argue with anyone. Even when faced with an agenda that is offensive to any person of true faith most Catholics say nothing.

Are you serious or a near complete stranger to the world of forums, including this one? I could quickly supply you with such a wealth of links evidencing the very think you deny. Besides multitudes of provocative articles by RCs about the distinctive claims of their "one true church" and a thousand times more posts attacking Prot beliefs, even presently , we have seen such things as
thanking God the Spanish Inquisition was up to the task,
that Protestantism is belief in one’s self, and
absolutely alien to Christianity, and that,
Protestants are mostly biblically illiterate,
intellectually dishonest,
evil fruit, who
don’t have the Holy Spirit, and
are not part of the Body of Christ, and
who have no foundation for their understanding of Christianity, and
will not be saved unless they becomes a member of the Catholic Church, and
are by inclination vandals who should be eradicated from the face of the earth.

But that Catholics never put down or challenge beliefs from protestants, and that,
there never has been a bit of anti-protestant bigotry on FR,
and have seen a Catholic teaching proven false,

[daniel1212]

Huh? Do you have a source for that erroneous statement?

Are you serious? Uncensored RC devotion even says

Mary can be declared by the Church to be not only the “helpmate” of that Second Divine Person — Co-Redemptrix in Salvation, Mediatrix in grace — but actually “like unto Him.”...when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His....As Mother of God, says Lepicier, Mary contracts a certain affinity with the Father; ... He has no children but by her, and communicates no graces but by her...and through her alone does He dispense His favours and His gifts. A Marian Synthesis; http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/msynthesis.htm

And,

"we are under thy protection, and therefore we have recourse, to thee alone, and we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil... we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation .." (From Judge Fairly, p. 5; http://www.catholictradition.org/Papacy/our-lady.htm).

And,

, "it [the name of Mary] alone will suffice to cure them of all their evils." — St. Alphonsus de Liguori http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/AL.html

And,

the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse...there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own.." — Manteau-Bonamy, Immaculate Conception, 91; F.X. Durrwell, The Holy Spirit of God (Cincinnati: Servant Books, 2006), 183-185.

And that according to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus.." — Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173

As said, in Scripture what would be judged as idolatry includes kneeling before a statue and praising the entity it represented in the unseen world, beseeching such for Heavenly help, and making offerings to them, and giving glory and titles and ascribing attributes to such which are never given in Scripture to created beings (except to false gods), including having the uniquely Divine power glory to hear and respond to virtually infinite numbers of prayers individually addressed to them

Yet Catholics imagine that by playing word games then they can avoid crossing the invisible line between mere "veneration" and worship.

Moses, put down those rocks! I was only engaging in hyper dulia, not adoring her. Can't you tell the difference?

The idea of a compassionate heavenly Mother, even preventing an angry Lord Jesus, irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil, has a strong psychological appeal, but which is pagan, not Christian.

The Catholic Encyclopedia speculates that a further reinforcement of Marian devotion, “was derived from the cult of the angels, which, while pre-Christian in its origin, was heartily embraced by the faithful of the sub-Apostolic age. It seems to have been only as a sequel of some such development that men turned to implore the intercession of the Blessed Virgin. This at least is the common opinion among scholars, though it would perhaps be dangerous to speak too positively. Evidence regarding the popular practice of the early centuries is almost entirely lacking...,” (Catholic Encyclopedia > Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary) Instead, Caths basically say,

Caths should only do (and I should do more of) what Mary and every believer in Scripture did in praying to Heaven, which was to pray directly to the Lord, not saintly secretaries. But they must truly become born again for that.

As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes... (Jeremiah 44:16-17)

[Lonely Bull]

The approach is never to prove another person wrong, but always to connect with what is good about their belief.

Paul to the Galatians:

You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Galatians 3:1-5

[1 Corinthians 9:19] For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
[20] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
[21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
[22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

[1 Corinthians 10:31] Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
[32] Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
[33] Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

(What I do think of the original quotation? I would've worded it noticeably differently, but I can see how I'd try to "rescue" it if I intended to.)

[kinsman redeemer]

I have never seen Catholics argue with anyone. Even when faced with an agenda that is offensive to any person of true faith most Catholics say nothing.

When I saw that I accepted it as true. I figured he (or she) meant it in the context of face-to-face conversation. Face-to-face, many of the Holy Roman Catholics that I know avoid conversation about the intricacies of their faith. They talk about having Mass said for dead people, or the next Holy Day of Obligation, if they like the Priest, BINGO, and what the Ladies Auxiliary is doing for the next rummage sale.

In the forum? Well, that is a completely different story.

As I've said before: The FR RF has a set of very "hard over" Holy Roman Catholics who struggle all the time to defend their faith.

[kinsman redeemer]

...and are by inclination vandals who should be eradicated from the face of the earth.

LOL - I have never seen THAT one!

I'll raise my S.A. to "red."

[ealgeone]

What is good about Islam to connect with?

[Lonely Bull]

What is good about Islam to connect with?

In terms of practical apologetics, I suppose that the answer may be something a bit like "what may have been good in ancient Greek or Roman polytheism."

I couldn't help being reminded of Paul's speech at the Areopagus (Acts 17), in which he mentioned the altar "to an unknown god" (for the first time, I especially notice the words "whom therefore ye ignorantly worship") and quoted pagan poets.

[ealgeone]

Paul didn’t take that approach with the Galatians though. I agree there is a time and place for both approaches.

[boatbums]

I agree that some Catholics are genuine Christians but the Roman Catholic church is not the "fullness" of the Christian faith. That fullness is found in Jesus Christ alone.

[boatbums]

Agreed.

[Bob434]

[[[21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. ]]

This does not mean he became lawless like the gentiles were lawless- He was still under the law of God while at the same time not putting himself under Jewish law when he was with the gentiles-

I am sure He pointed out their sin to them (He surely must have had to do so in order to convince them of their lost condition) and didn’t sugar coat everything just to win them over through trickery. When He would point out their sin- of course it was offensive to them, but it was what they needed to hear to understand they were lost-

He did not jump in and become a drunkard, swearing, sleeping around with women, blaspheming like they did etc-

When he uses the absolutes such as ‘all’ ‘none’ etc- he doesn’t mean he became ALL things to ALL people- this would imply he became just like them- whichever crowd he was in

There Are limits to the absolutes such as ‘all’, and it was more just a figure of speech than an absolute- as we’ve seen

[daniel1212]

Add to the grievous collection. And despite the utter absence of even one prayer among the approx. 200 in Scripture, and that despite prayer being a most basic practice, yet Rome asserts this was apostolic doctrine, existing in her amorphous collection of oral tradition.

Which is to be assuredly believed under the the novel premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility, which is unseen and unnecessary in Scripture. And for support of which they invoke tradition.

But which is no more apostolic doctrine than the esoteric teachings of Gnostic purporting to have access to hidden apostolic doctrine.

[daniel1212]

All who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians

How gracious. Rather than separating them with the sword of men as before, they are called "separated brethren," yet the churches such may belong to are are "not Churches in the proper sense." ("DOMINUS IESUS") Yet ecclesia is even used for civil assemblies, (Act_19:32, 39, 41) and even the church of the Laodiceans was called a ecclesia. Thus perhaps the title might be allowed to be used for the church of Roman assembly.

[redleghunter]

eagleone: We've been told: one can only come to Christ through Mary.

NYer: Huh? Do you have a source for that erroneous statement

Yes. I viewed the quote from eagleone from Pope Leo XIII. That's one. However, pinged above is steelfish who quoted to me on another thread the following:

"Without Mary's intercession there is no salvation."

Perhaps talk amongst yourselves before responding. Thanks.

[metmom]

Check out this thread, which I doubt you missed.......

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3357223/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3357223/posts?page=296#296

That should answer your question.

Seems like Catholics have great latitude to believe what they wish in regard to salvation. The very thing they criticize and condemn non-Catholics for.