Posted on 10/19/2015 3:00:20 PM PDT by markomalley
What, exactly, was the problem with that?
Are you decrying when Protestants burned Catholics at the stake (or beheaded them or hung them by the neck until dead?) Or only when Catholics burned Protestants (or beheaded them or hung them by the neck until dead).
News flash: that's what happened to heretics back in the day. That's regardless of whether it is people who you'd consider a heretic or people who I'd consider a heretic.
Good question. What we've learned since then, watching the parade of human folly, is that they didn't sacrifice their lives in error, either.
Someone up-thread was trying to make hay out of the idea that, over the centuries, judgments of nullity were at times bent by political considerations. I wouldn't be surprised. Interesting for the historian or the novelist, but irrelevant here. In moral terms, Henry's case wasn't a close one. It was as cold-blooded and venal as it was logically ridiculous.
The issue with Henry VIII was not that he got an annulment. Because of consanguinity laws in place (Catherine was the widow of Henry's brother Arthur, making her off-limits per the laws in place at that time), Henry had to get a Papal Dispensation (an official determination that justice mandates an exception to the law) of those consanguinity laws in order to be able to marry her.
Then he was to ask the Pope to basically say, "oops -- never mind," in regard to his prior dispensation. Obviously, that's not going to work as it would call the Pope's judgment into question for all manner of decisions.
That's what made this different than other annulment situations.
If he remarries he sins because Scripture says so (Matthew 5, Matthew 19, Mark 10, Mark 19).
Deuteronomy explicitly says otherwise (in a particular case).
Can the scripture be broken ?
Jesus said no: "When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery." - Mark 10:10-12.
Is Jesus wrong?
Thank you for your clear review on post #8. Pope Francis is responsible for the suspicious statements from heretics in the Vatican who twist dogma in order to be “merciful.”
Heretics, please note. It is not merciful to delete the rules.
A little weirder in the special-pleading direction, is that what you're saying?
Very prudent. You are wise, Mrs. Don-o
As Chancellor, More was obliged to apply the laws: he did not make them. And the laws were formulated with the suppression of sedition in mind: since everybody (church and state, orthodox and heretic, the prosecutors and the condemned) --- all of them --- understood that heresy involved treason: the repudiation of the oaths, covenants, and fealties which kept the kingdom united and at peace.
Six men were burned during Thomas More's chancellorship, which is indeed a very odious thing. More was directly involved in only three of these cases (maybe four? it's unclear), and in no case did he have any legal options: they were all relapsed convicts, whom he had no power to reprieve.
(Let me interject here that I remember when Karla Faye Tucker was executed in Texas during George Bush's term as governor. A lot of people, including myself at the time, blamed Bush for not pardoning her, since she was very much a converted person who had repented and repudiated her crime. It was only later that I learned that under the TX Constitution, the Governor had no power to pardon for capital crimes. Not exactly the same, but similar with More: he wouldn't have had the power to overturn their sentences.)
Yet More did believe in the death penalty for heresy/sedition. In his Apology and again in The Debellation of Salem and Bizance (both in 1533) he defended the principle of punishment of heresy by secular power on the ground that it threatened the peace and safety of the commonwealth. As Chancellor it was his duty to administer the civil laws of England, which prescribed the death penalty for obstinate heretics. During his service as Chancellor, he was personally involved in ~4 cases which resulted in executions. In three years.
You can get this in better perspective when you realize that in 1535, in early June alone, when Thomas More was in prison, Henry VIII’s regime with Thomas Cromwell at the helm burned at the stake 14 heretics. In two weeks.
Please don't think I am writing this as a total exoneration of Thomas More's Chancellorship, as if he were blameless. It's just a matter of seeing the men and the times with a just eye.
As usual, there is a simple solution. German bishops have always chafed under Rome’s orthodoxy. Fine, let declare their heresy for all to hear. Then go their separate way. Catholicism has survived much worse and will survive this latest heresy.
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
You are trying to change things with a slight twisting. Jesus brought the New Covenant, and it is best to follow His teachings. As the cloud overshadowed Peter, James, and John, and God Almighty spoke with the clear direction...”this is My Beloved Son, hear ye Him.”
Jesus clearly said as DoodleDawg quoted:
“When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.” - Mark 10:10-12.
Change ? Oh, the rich irony and hypocrisy.
Jesus brought the New Covenant, and it is best to follow His teachings. As the cloud overshadowed Peter, James, and John, and God Almighty spoke with the clear direction...”this is My Beloved Son, hear ye Him."
Jesus clearly said as DoodleDawg quoted:
Are you trying to deny the other scriptures, including those Jesus spoke ?
I don't think there can be a clearer statement of Jesus's beliefs than that.
Are you pickinging and choosing which of Jesus' sayings to believe, interpreting some the way you understand and casting off others ?
No but I suggest that the New Testament and Jesus's own words are a better view into what He believed about marriage than Deuteronomy.
I think I see where this argument is headed. If one throws away Deuteronomy ...
Seek the reason for what He commanded. And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire, (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the work of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying, I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me, And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee. Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Thou shalt not kill. Neither shalt thou commit adultery. Neither shalt thou steal. Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour. Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any thing that is thy neighbour's. These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me. The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses one to twenty two,
Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter eighteen, Protestant verses fifteen to nineteen,
Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter thirty, Protestant verses one to sixteen,
Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses seventeen to nineteen, and thirty one to thirty two,
John, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verses thirty four to thirty seven,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James, boldunderline emphasis my choice
In Mark 10, verses two through four, the Pharisees quote Deuteronomy when Jesus asked them what Moses said about divorce. Jesus then continues to say, basically, that Moses was wrong and that marriage is a lifetime covenant between a man and a woman. And to leave one spouse and marry another is adultery. So given a choice between Moses and Jesus, I’m going to lean more heavily on what Jesus taught.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.