Posted on 08/24/2015 8:10:50 PM PDT by damonw
I am posting only an excerpt here because this written debate is pretty long. Read the excerpts to find out what a Synecdoche is if you do not already know. I am the baptist in the debate and think I won hands down because the CoC guy could not even prove that verbs can be synecdoches, but I did finish weakly. I am posting this to FR because in my research I found this to be the only debate on the subject even though the argument is often used by more advanced CoC debaters. Here is opening clips of my opening statement. And Dave Bells opening clip is in the first comment below.
DEBATE: Is faith a Synecdoche? Denial Opening Statement by Damon Whitsell
Hello Dave, thanks for this debate and bringing up this interesting topic, it’s a new one for me. In researching for this debate I found many Church of Christ articles that claimed faith is a synecdoche. But they all just made the assertion without trying to prove or make a positive case for that assertion. I look forward to hearing your affirmative case and responding.
A Synecdoche, as I understand it, is a figure of speech in which a part represents a whole of something, or the whole represents a part of something, such as a “hand” represents a “worker”. And from our prior interactions and your posting in the group, I take it that by saying “faith is a synecdoche” you mean the word faith means to do or “obey” the “whole plan of salvation” which is “hear, repent of sin, believe, confess, be baptized for remission of sin and live a faithful life” (6 steps). I think you will have a hard time establishing the truthfulness of that claim and my reasons follow.
(Excerpt) Read more at how2becomeachristian.wordpress.com ...
IS “FAITH” A SYNECDOCHE?
It has been said that “words written in truth are everlasting” and I believe that with all my heart. The question of this discussion is about the use of the word “faith” or belief and how it is used in scripture especially in regards to our salvation. Many contend that all one has to do is to believe or have faith in Christ and at that point one is saved and that it is by faith alone and nothing else since all other would be to add ‘works’ of our own to that salvation. In one sense that is true but it is only true if one realises that “faith is a synecdoche for the whole plan of salvation we must obey in order to be saved. So that is how am I using the word synecdoche here? We must define our terms for the discussion to continue.
Synecdoche: This word is from the Greek sunechdeechesthai meaning to receive jointly. It is usually spoken of as a figure of speech by which is spoken a whole by a part or a part by using a term denoting the whole.
All of us who read and study the Bible must remember that it is richly endowed with figures of speech and the synecdoche is one of the most common figures of speech used by the Bible writers under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There fore we must read, recognise, and learn to correctly interpret synecdoche’s this is absolutely necessary if we would be faithful and accurate in drawing our conclusions on numerous passages and indeed subjects.
(Excerpt) Read more at how2becomeachristian.wordpress.com ...
Again with the blog pimping.
Well, at least this one is a blog LOLOL. I am posting this here because I think it needs to be here and get as much exposure as possible. CoCers use this line of argumentation frequently and people need to know how to respond to it, do you know how to, if not read the debate. And what is the excerpt function for if not to use? And is FR only for big-time publishers?
Your right brother. TY for the heads up!!!
And about a subject that won't be decided in the earthly dimension of humans and their limited understanding. That's the real depth of the word "faith."
Any thoughts on this?
Without reading the large amount of interesting text you have on your site concerning this, I surmise a reasonable amount of the debate was around “faith” and “works.”
In truth, faith without works, is dead. Can you be saved with no works? If a baby Christian (someone who likely had just accepted Christ) died, I would think that person would be in Heaven. If, however, someone had no works for some time after that, then that person would be up against what is in Scripture in James 2.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2:14-26&version=NKJV
It would be expected that one would grow and start evidencing Christ in their life. If they don't, then one would wonder if they ever truly accepted Christ into their hearts.
This is a difficult area to navigate in the Bible, as various references seem at odds with each other, but I don't believe this is necessarily true when walked through.
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. Hebrews 11:6
This kind of division merely destroys your brethren, for whom Christ died. Galatians 5:15 "If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other."
I know a Church of Christ that split into two factions, one going off on its own until it returned a few years later.
They were arguing over whether it was scriptural to bring food into the basement of the church and share fellowship.
Garrison Keillor skewers these kind of things in his Lake Wobegon book talking about his character’s church, The Bretheren, and how there were two branches: one allowed women to wear slacks, the other did not. And so forth.
This is the kind of stuff people do when they have too much time on their hands and want to stir the ... stuff.
Binging up this blog is a synecdoche for bringing up the whole issue of figurative-literal language in Scripture vs figurative interpretation of the Scriptures??
Don’t have time to read this now, but I suppose this eventually gets around to the “baptism as part of salvation” argument. Not intending to start a flame war, but this is where I find myself at this point in the journey:
I take the church of Christ position on this because I believe the Bible clearly teaches by command and by example that baptism is part of the plan of salvation. Most Baptists and the vast majority other Protestants I have encountered tend to vehemently deny this, using the argument that baptism is a work, and that we are not saved by works but by grace through faith. I also happen to believe that we are saved by grace through faith, so the question becomes, “is baptism a work or faithful obedience to God’s command?”
But I digress; the part that confuses me is how can one advance the argument that baptism is a work and therefore cannot be essential to salvation, yet hold the position that one is saved by reciting the Sinner’s Prayer and offering to turn his life over to the Lord. How can baptism be a work, yet reciting the Sinner’s Prayer not be considered a work?
(This is just too tortuous)
He’s a Reformed believer, and if truly so,
then the “sinner’s prayer” argument is not
relevant to him either.
Saw your blog pimp yesterday.
You aren’t interested in debating Christian ideas about proper worship.
You’re interested in pimping your blog and showing everyone how smart you are.
How small of you. Of course you won your debate, if you do say so yourself (and you do).
You must be brilliant to say I am not interested in debating in a thread with the OP linking to a debate. And if you seen my “blog pimp” yesterday them you should have seen I responded to every comment that was made towards me. How could I win or lose my debate IF I am not interested in debate? AND BTW, My opponent is just as smart as me but he had the indefensible position to defend.
AND ATTENTION: When people cannot defend their positions they often revert to attacking the people who postulate the idea’s,,, instead of attacking the ideas themselves:,,, this is called an Ad Hominem argument. The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
Your most foundational and basic error of interpretation lies in thinking that James 2 is the go to place in scripture to clarify what salvation is. You and others that oppose salvation by faith alone seem to think James was teaching differently than Paul and the rest of scripture. But he is not. Paul is the apostle to the gentiles and James was a Jew speaking to Jews. They were speaking to two different audiences and emphasizing two different types of Justification. Paul said Abraham was justified by faith and had nothing to boast about before God. He was showing justification before God. Yet James said “Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2:18). He is speaking about justification before men. And both Paul and James agree and said that Abraham believed God and it was counted or credited to him as righteousness. To see the two different kind of justifications see (Rom 4:2) “For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God”. If Abraham was justified by works, as James at first glance appears to assert he is, he can glory before men but not before God. Romans 3: 19-20 says “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” The law makes all men “guilty before God” and “in his sight”, but we can be seen as just to men by observing and keeping the law and doing good works. This has to be the true understanding of James2:24 because the scripture is clear in so many places that we are saved through faith and not by works. James cannot be speaking in contradiction to the rest of scripture.
I have to wonder about you guys who take James 2 and try to say we are also justified by works, I wonder if you guys would even do good works if you did not think they contribute to your salvation. Maybe you should do a study on rewards in the bible so you could see that faith is for salvation and works are for reward, not salvation – which is a gift from God.
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