Posted on 08/08/2015 2:06:13 PM PDT by NYer
. Is the blood of Christ insufficient to cleanse all sin?
Where does this principle come from?
There’s NO purgatory, so nobody is being “abandoned” by anyone.
It’s either heaven or hell and the deal is sealed while here on earth.
For the believer, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and HE is NOT in purgatory, suffering yet.
| Another provocative practice promoted and examined The Fallacious Doctrine: “5 Reasons to Pray for the Souls in Purgatory” Refuted
But the basis for his exhortation is doctrinal and thus must be examined by those who test all things by the only wholly inspired substantive body of express Divine revelation that God has provided.
Actually, not only can RCs apparently disagree on this aspect, but the only postmortem suffering that Scripture manifestly teaches for saved souls is that of shame and the suffering the loss of rewards at the judgment seat of Christ, as 1Cor. 3:8ff teaches, due to the combustible manner of workmanship which one built the church with. Which loss by burning of works one is saved despite of, not because of. And which only occurs after the Lord's coming, not commencing at death, thus excluding it from being purgatory. Other texts which are invoked as supporting purgatory either refer to this life, or to the lost, as can be shown, by God's grace.
Yet nowhere in Scripture are departed souls ever prayed for (or to) to be released from suffering , and even in 2Mac. 12 the prayer is part of the ritual of making an offering for the dead who were slain due to idolatry, “that the [mortal] sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance” being mindful of the resurrection. (2Mac. 12:42,43) Which is not that of saved souls being released from purifying torments and of making atonement for sins that were forgiven but not yet made up for, but that of intercession being made that they may realize the resurrection of the just, or may not be damned at the judgment that believed follows the resurrection.
Yet nowhere is this seen in Scripture, despite multitudes of believers having past on, and the only place any of them are said or shown to be (apart from their bodies being in the grave) is in Heaven. (Heb. 12:22-24) Likewise wherever NT Scriptures clearly speak about the next spiritual place of man after death then it is always with the Lord. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17) though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul who said that to depart from this life was to be with Christ. (Phil. 1:20-24; 3:13,14)
Yet even the carnal Corinthians were not warned of any postmortem suffering (apart from the aforementioned judgment seat of Christ), but told that “to absent from the body is to be present with the Lord” and that all believers would be with the Lord at His return. (1Co. 15) For the primary fundamental premise behind purgatory is that one must become actually practically good enough to be with God, which is a gospel of salvation under the Law, but with more grace given to attain the level of practical perfection needed. But while the only kind of faith that is salvific is one that will produce characteristic obedience and holiness, it is faith which both obtains purification of the heart and is imputed as, counted for righteousness. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Romans 4:3-5) Which is not restricted to the Law: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5) Texts such as, Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) are not teaching that practical perfection of character is essential in order to see God, but that holiness, which is imputed to the unGodly by faith, making him accepted in the Beloved, and made to sit together with Christ, (Eph. 1:6; 2:6) is a fruit that those of true faith are to seek to be realized practically. It is simply untenable to presume that all the believers would have been perfect in character if the Lord returned in the first century, or that the so-called “good thief” became perfect in only a few hours on the cross, yet all were told that their next residence and reality would be that of being with the Lord. (1Ths. 4:7; Lk. 23:39-43)
Yet while believers are told of many specific rewards for certain things, including turning a backslider back to the Lord, (Ja. 5:19,20) yet nowhere in Scripture is there any mention of believers being rewarded for praying for the souls in purgatory.
Yet nowhere in all of Scripture, with its over 200 prayers, does anyone (but pagans) pray to or make offerings to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord! Nor in any instructions on prayer to Heaven are we taught or exhorted to prayer to any one else but the Lord (Our Father who art in Heaven,” not “our Mother...”) Nor does the Holy Spirit cry to anyone but the Father (“Abba, Father,” Gal. 4:6; not “Mama, Mother”). Nor is any created being shown being able to hear multitudinous prayers to them in Heaven, which only God is shown able to do.
After 1400 years we still have this. Give money to Rome and your poor souls will soon stop suffering. Act today: only 9.99 for express shipping of souls. Preach salvation on the basis of becoming perfect in character, then invent purgatory in order to obtain it, then promise deliverance by money, thus feeding the machinery that runs on this false salvation system.
But one should note that this purifying is not simply being washed from sins, but all character defects: "...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." (Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224 ) However, Rome holds that the newly baptized can go directly to Heaven due to being even though what her baptism is claimed to effect, that of forgiveness and regeneration, with “infused charity” rendering one good enough to be with God, does not make one free from all character defects. Thus they subsequently sin and usually need purgatory in order to once again become enough to be with God. In addition, nowhere is the character development of man shown to be take place apart from earth, as instead it is here, with its tests and temptations, that men are to learn to overcome the world, the devil and the lusts of the flesh, of pleasure, possessions and prestige/power. Nor does only suffering work to perfect character. Thus it was here that Eve was tested, Job was proved, and the Lord Himself was “made perfect,” in being tempted in all points like as we are,” (Heb. 4:15l 5:9) yet without sinning. (2Co. 5:7; 1Pt. 2:22)
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There seems to be a LOT of FR Catholics that don't believe the pope; too!
Do you have a LINK to this bible?
I; for one; would like to see it.
Nonsense.
Here: grow some more...
HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):
SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:
The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".
Really?
His 'trouble' is that he does not know where; in the bible; to find the heaviness you are alluding to.
... Rome teaches that UNLESS someone prays for a person in Purgatory; they stay they LONGER???
That's not EXACTLY what Paul wrote...
2 Corinthians 5:8 NIV
We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
...stay THERE longer...
This is completely opposite of what the scriptures teach to the church...
What an unspeakable joy there must be when a soul is released, purified, and seeing its God, never to be separated again!
It is unspeakable joy but not upon release from purgatory for no such place exists...
Our souls are purified the Milli-second we come to Jesus and make him our Savior, never to be separated again...And the joy IS unspeakable...
Except that even if the thief gives back what he stole, plus some, there's no way he can make up for the suffering that he caused, because there's more involved that just returning the property. There's a betrayal of trust. There's the victims left with the feeling of being violated, that cannot be undone.
When God forgives, He forgives and forgets. He does not demand restitution. It's total, unconditional, blanket forgiveness, a gift freely given. The sin debt is erased and we owe Him NOTHING.
The caucus was shut down because of what happened in post 24, as per the RM in post 31. Nor did e1 mention Luther. You yourself brought him up.
Do not blame ealgeone for that.
Looks like Luther is back on the black list again.
In the beginning when the Father created you, he placed the perfect “energy” of Him, your soul, inside the body He carefully crafted for it and thus you were created: a perfect masterpiece by the Master Himself.
In that moment, the only thing anchoring your soul, a spark of the Creator’s perfect light, or energy, if you will, to this physical world was your physical body.
Your newly created soul in your newly created body is not unlike a balloon first filled to the max with super-heated air and your physical body is the tether holding it on the ground. It the tether was cut, the balloon would zoom upward as high as its energy would take it, which for the case of a newly created, pure soul is all the way back to heaven itself.
However, life in a sin saturated world can take its toll on a soul. We grow attachments to the world and our attachments become tethers tying our soul down.
If we give in to temptations, rebel against the Spirit, our soul gets cut by the double edged sins of the world and our soul then bleeds out the light of the Creator and our inner light and energy diminishes.
If the body were to die, the soul is in serious trouble for it is tied to the world and has also lost the energy it needed to rise back home. Its sins and attachments to the world have tethered it to the muck and it can rise only as high in the Spiritual hierarchy as its light/energy merits.
Had this soul walked righteously upright following His Footsteps on the Path of Virtues, it would have zoomed home just like it would have in the beginning.
As it is in this condition, it’s only hope of rising now is energy from above. Something from a higher level comes down and lifts it up or gives it the energy needed to rise naturally above where it’s stuck now.
We, the sinners, need God to stoop down from His Throne all the way down to our level here stuck in the muck of this sin saturated, former Garden and heal Satan’s spiritual death by a thousand cuts before our light bleeds out and our light goes out.
We need Him to raise us from this spiritual death, otherwise with our physical death, the soul will rise or fall to the level we’ve merited by what we’ve done and not done here in Schoolhouse Earth.
Okay, with that bit of confusion, I definitely need more coffee! Apologies for my rambling incoherently too much and too often.
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