Taking his seat in the temple of God

triablogue ^ | December 10, 2014 | Steve Hayes

[MHGinTN]

If you read old German, look for the paper which Alexander cited to Ice. But this is beginning to look like searching for escape clauses ...

[redleghunter]

Worth the read:

http://www.drbentownsend.com/Documents/Doct-EphraemSyrianMessage.pdf

Best I can find of a source document, although would rather read it on a site like CCEL.

As Dr. Ice stated the document does not prove the pre-trib rapture. But it does put to rest all the nonesense about Darby and some mystic making up the pre-trib rapture. The sources clearly doubt Ephraem wrote the homily, but do state that it gives an insight into the thoughts of some during the Byzantine era. So there’s that.

[MHGinTN]

Thanks for the link. Will go there now.

[MHGinTN]

An interesting read indeed! It is reflective of the times in which the Syrian lived.

[MHGinTN]

Thanks again for the link. There are more at the Ice linked site http://www.pre-trib.org . Some of the materials are astonishing in their predictive quality.

[sasportas]

There were two Ephraem's, the true one, Ephraem the Syrian, his writings clearly showing no hint of any pretrib belief, and a "Pseudo" Ephraem, writing hundreds of years later, writing falsely under the name of the "true" Ephraem, plagarizing the "true" Ephraem. Pseudonyomous, in other words.

The writings of this "Pseudo-Ephraem" are a stark contrast to what the true Ephraem wrote. The true Ephraem was very coherent and scholarly, false Ephraem just the opposite, utterly incoherent. If ever there was a unreliable document from ancient history, it is this one by false Ephraem. Modern Pretribs prove themselves as unscrupulous as false Ephraem by using such an unscrupulous plagarizer for their alleged "proof."

Trying to mimic the true Ephraem, this plagarizer is all over the board. In one place in his document he says things that "sound" to a modern pretrib ears as if he was pretrib, which modern pretribs pounce on to use as "proof," but, when you read on, you find him saying things which no pretrib would ever say.

This is what Bob Gundry, professor at Westmont College, Calif., says of the two Ephraems:

“In Pseudo-Ephraem’s sermon, Christians lie buried during the tribulation. They are raised from the dead, meet the Lord after the tribulation, so that their ‘meeting of the Lord Christ’ in the first supposedly pretrib passage, can hardly refer to a pretrib meeting without contradicting a good deal else in the sermon. Since Pseudo-Ephraem draws from true Ephraem, a look at true Ephraem offers guidelines for understanding Pseudo-Ephraem’s sermon. The guidelines turn out to be post – rather than pretrib.”

Gundry then proceeds to provide proof from the true Ephraem’s works, that the true Ephraem believed the same as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, etc., virtually the same belief (singular 2nd coming, post-trib rapture) as every individual who wrote in those ancient times.

[MHGinTN]

well, at least I see where you get your condescension from.

[sasportas]

Here in America, for as long as I can remember, it has been pretribism in the cat bird seat. Those of us who are post-tribs, treated like something that fell off a turnip truck. There has been missionaries who’s support has been withdrawn, forced out of missionary work, because they went against the overbearing pretribism overlords of their denomination.

Now, what is it you are saying about condescension?

[sasportas]

To make more sense out of my statement:

There has been post-trib missionaries who’s support has been withdrawn, forced out of missionary work, because their belief went against the overbearing beliefs of the pretrib overlords of their denomination.

[MHGinTN]

You jumped into this discussion by my invitation/ping to you. We aren't interested in the chips on your shoulders. The essay I linked to states clearly: "It is not at all unreasonable to expect that a prolific and prominent figure such as Ephraem would have writings ascribed to him. While there is little support for Ephraem as the author of the Sermon on the End of the World, Caspari and Alexander have demonstrated that Pseudo-Ephraem was "heavily influenced by the genuine works of Ephraem."

The first time you tried your condescension on me was with the little essay I posted regarding the Rapture. Your plea then was that no such event was ever even discussed until Darby in the 1830s. Sorry, that was shown false EVEN by this Pseudo-Ephraem sermon. Whether you wish to hold to a post trib rapture or not is your prerogative. I'm not going to even acknowledge the chips on your shoulders. I will discuss the items in the sermon more properly attributed to 'Pseudo-Ephraem' (since the earliest manuscript the German writer found dated to the late 500s, IIRC).

[sasportas]

Using the plagarist false Ephraem for proof of pretrib before Darby, per Prof. Gundry shows in his writings, is as false as pretrib itself.

Amongst a mountain of historic proof in the ECF, pretribs dismiss with the back of their hand, meanwhile turning to this incoherent “false” Ephraem character, as if he is the last word on the historic proof before Darby issue. Incredible, I tell you. Why not look to the true Ephraem instead of false Ephraem? Dishonest scholarship, in my view.

Bottom line: using false Ephraem for “proof” - instead of the ECF and the “true” Ephraem - is grasping at straws.

Chips on your shoulders, eh? Well, that is it as far as I’m concerned. This is my last to you. Find you somebody else to insult. Bye.

[MHGinTN]

*grins* See ya

[sasportas]

I should read what I type before I post it. Like this statement, which I make more sensible:

Using the plagarist false Ephraem for proof of pretrib before Darby, as Prof. Gundry has shown in his writings, is as false as pretrib itself.

[MHGinTN]

On an aside, have you perhaps read the text of Justin Maryr's trial? It has an interesting presumption:

The Prefect Rusticus says: Approach and sacrifice, all of you, to the gods. Justin says: No one in his right mind gives up piety for impiety. The Prefect Rusticus says: If you do not obey, you will be tortured without mercy. Justin replies: That is our desire, to be tortured for Our Lord, Jesus Christ, and so to be saved, for that will give us salvation and firm confidence at the more terrible universal tribunal of Our Lord and Saviour.