My question is why are Catholics being singled out in this article rather than the other sects who are higher?
Posted on 03/08/2015 7:22:35 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
You, I, and the gospel are not in disagreement here. Christ changed the issue from sin to Himself. The issue is no longer sin. All sinful acts of the whole world were punished 2000 years ago (1 John 2:2).
The issue now is JESUS CHRIST and whether a person will accept his free gift of forgiveness apart from works.
"He that believes on him [NOT he that doesn't sin] is not condemned: but he that believes not [NOT he that sins] is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18.
So Jesus has already paid the death penalty for you, me, and that capital criminal. The death penalty is unjust punishment because whatever heinous acts the person did, those acts were already judged, condemned, and punished 2000 years ago, so the death penalty is unjust double jeopardy.
The valid purposes of the penal code and imprisonment are Restraint (incarceration) for the protection of society, Restitution where applicable, Deterrence, and Rehabilitation.
Doesn't make it just.
The Ananias and his wife episode doesn't nullify the doctrine of the gospel of the grace of Jesus Christ which states that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) and God in Christ does not impute the word's trespasses against them (2 Corinthians 5:19).
The Bible also says that there is a sin that brings death and a sin that does not bring death (1 John 5:16-17). Ananias and his wife probably fall in that category. But it was God, not man, who intervened (more likely than not these were non-believers who had reached the end of their refusal to receive Christ).
Nevertheless, none of this nullifies the gospel of forgiveness through Christ to those who will receive Him nor nullifies unjust double jeopardy for punishing a man twice for the same act.
There are other reasons besides punishment for a penal code and prisons including Restraint (incarceration) for the protection of society, Restitution where applicable, Deterrence, and Rehabilitation.
Not believing in and receiving Christ. I John 2:2, John 3:18.
I would suggest the following reading for all Catholics:
https://harvestingthefruit.com/deathpenalty/
My question is why are Catholics being singled out in this article rather than the other sects who are higher?
It is a sinful world.
The Ananias and his wife episode doesn't nullify the doctrine of the gospel of the grace of Jesus Christ which states that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:2) and God in Christ does not impute the word's trespasses against them (2 Corinthians 5:19).
Never said it did, however it does nullify the contention that there are no temporal consequences for sin. They lied, they died, at God's hand. In the above I believe you meant to say 'world's' vs 'word's', and yet that applies to believers whose sins are forgiven.
nor nullifies unjust double jeopardy
Where is the double jeopardy to use a modern phrase? God's court is one thing, man's court is a different jurisdiction. In Man's court there is the divine authority to execute judgement.
Romans 13 1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
Because this is a guilt piece by a more lefty Catholic.
You have a valid point, but it seems to me that most of the posts in this thread are speaking more about the Death Penalty in general. It’s as if no one really cares about the focus of the OP on the “white Catholics”. Perhaps most realize it’s bogus.
It is a sinful world.
So it is OK to support unjust acts because we live in a sinful world? Something wrong there. We're supposed to shine lights in the darkness, not applaud and support the darkness.
temporal consequences for sin
Of course but that does not include punishment for an act that has already been punished.
The cops and jails are needed as Romans 15 says, but, again, it is for the purposes of Restraint, Restitution, Deterrence, and Rehabilitation. If you resist a cop, you may get killed but that is more like being killed in a war, not for the purpose of sentencing you to death for an act.
A Christian leftist? Isn't that a bit of an oxymoron?
You say it is unjust. The governmental authority established by God says otherwise.
temporal consequences for sin Of course but that does not include punishment for an act that has already been punished.
Of course it does. Ananias and his wife are dead. Temporal consequences for lying, a sin, post crucifixion. God killed them. Or do you contend that sin wasn't covered at Calvary since it was a sin against the Holy Spirit? Either way, it had temporal consequences for the two of them, executed by God.
I worked in California prisons for 25 years. All of those points you make, apply somewhat, but the incarceration IS the punishment. As an evangelical Christian, I tend to lean in favor of the death penalty, partly, I suppose, because I spent so much time among the dregs of society. I believe Christ's death on the cross, was to save people from Hell, not from the consequences of their own misconduct.
I know John 3:18 and certainly agree those who do not believe are condemned, but it does not say Christ paid for all of the sin of all men.
And I of course agree everyone who is saved believes, but their belief is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8)
For your argument to be true, you would have to claim unbelief isn’t a sin when the Bible clearly tells us unbelief is a sin. “Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.” (Hebrews 3:12) In fact, everything that does not proceed from faith is sin (Romans 14:23b)
Christ died for His sheep and He paid the sin debt of His sheep, those given Him by the Father (John 6:37), those chosen in Him from the foundation of the earth (Ephesians 1:4). Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.”(John 10:11)
Wrong. Christ did changed the issue from sin to Himself, but stated that rejection of Him left them in their sins and objects of wrath. As such they are and will be held accountable for their sins. Just as those who fall from grace by believing a different gospel as warned in Gal. 5:1-4 make Christ of no effect, so Christ is of no effect those who do not believe. Thus they are under the curse of God for their sins now, and will be forever.
So Jesus has already paid the death penalty for you, me, and that capital criminal.
Again, you are ignoring the fact that what Christ did avails the lost nothing until they repent and believe on Him.
those acts were already judged, condemned, and punished 2000 years ago, so the death penalty is unjust double jeopardy.
Wrong, for the above reason, plus the fact that God makes Christians subject to the wrath of civil rulers in this world for actual sins, as showed.
To be consistent you cannot allow that God punished both the lost and the elect in this life for sins. You cannot contradict Scripture as you continue to do yet claim it is your authority.
The valid purposes of the penal code and imprisonment are Restraint (incarceration) for the protection of society
And punishment:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. (Romans 13:4-5)
Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. (1 Peter 2:13-14)
Which is why the modern Catholic Church has very little to do with Christianity.
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Ananias and his wife are not exceptions here at all. We still sin, but Scripture CLEARLY says our sins are not imputed to us (2 Corinthians 5:19).
There is still sin and unless we’re here when Jesus comes, we will die. We die because our bodies are corrupted by our inherited sin. We are not punished for our sins but since God chose not to redeem our bodies, our bodies are left behind.
Where we go after we die is NOT determined by how bad or good we are or how many sins we committed. Only ONE thing determines our eternal destiny: Jesus Christ.
There is a sin that causes death (1 John 5:16). Sometimes a person may continue in sin to a point where that sin kills them (if you jump off a thirty story building you will die - you’re not being punished for sin, but your sin has killed you).
However, a nonbeliever may at any time reach the point where mercy and grace ends for them to receive Jesus Christ and their sin kills them. As I said, you don’t know where Ananias and his wife ended up for sure and neither do I, nor do you know exactly why they died, and you don’t base doctrine on conjecture about one semi-murky incident. We know they were meddling in God’s work, likely they were not believers, and they may have simply reached the end of God’s mercy in not receiving Jesus Christ as their Savior.
Of course, but the reason is not a just reason.
The just reasons for incarceration are what I listed: Restraint for the protection of society, Restitution where applicable, Deterrence, and Rehabilitation.
The gospel declares that we have eternal life, not because of what we do, but because we receive Jesus Christ.
Likewise, one is condemned not because of what he does, but because he has refused to receive Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the issue. If one doesn’t accept Jesus Christ, then yes, they will die in their sins. But those sins have already been paid for. The unbeliever has failed to take the salvation that was completely paid for so he dies condemned but didn’t need to.
The gospel declares that we have eternal life, not because of what we do, but because we receive Jesus Christ.
Likewise, one is condemned not because of what he does, but because he has refused to receive Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the issue. If one doesn’t accept Jesus Christ, then yes, they will die in their sins. But those sins have already been paid for. The unbeliever has failed to take the salvation that was completely paid for so he dies condemned but didn’t need to.
The cops and jails are needed as Romans 15 says, but, again, it is for the purposes of Restraint, Restitution, Deterrence, and Rehabilitation. If you resist a cop, you may get killed but that is more like being killed in a war, not for the purpose of sentencing you to death for an act.
Do you accept that unbelief is a sin?
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