Posted on 02/23/2015 11:33:40 AM PST by RnMomof7
“Even the demons believed and they aren’t saved.”
What leads you to believe that demons could have the potential to be saved?
Thank you for this, there is a good deal of food for thought here :)
One thing that I have wondered about for a long time was the near sacrifice of Abraham’s son, and I wonder if the proximity of Baal worshippers had anything to do with it.
I think there is a tension in the Church between obedience to God and playing Simon Says with a bunch of similarly flawed human beings. The former is desirable, the latter ends in tears.
The “fear” used here is the Greek “phobos” which means “(to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.”
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
In context, it’s therefore difficult to make the case this “fear” is of the awestruck variety.
The Greek “phobeo” has awe as a possible translation, but not “phobos.” “Phobos” in the same context was also used in 2 Cor. 7:1 & Eph. 5:21.
I have sometimes thought that the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son was a shadow of the Fathers willingness to sacrifice His..
That does sound likely.
You are misreading your Bible. The Scriptures are very clear that salvation can’t be both by grace and works because grace is antithetical to works. Scripture tells us that salvation is by grace alone and works are merely the fruit of what God does in us and not the means for meriting eternal life. Grace and works simply cannot mix in any way when we consider the grounds of our justification before the Lord. If works are required, salvation becomes a reward that our Creator is obligated to give us and not a gift that is wholly unmerited by us.
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
-—Romans 11:6
“For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”
-—Ephesians 2:8-10
“But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
-—Titus 3:4-7
Amen
Go read what Augustine had to say about Jerome’s translation.
Heck, go read about how translation works, period.
Jerome mangled the text horribly. Augustine had access to native Greek and Hebrew speakers, and had a long list of problems with the translation that became the Vulgate (and he wasn’t alone). Jerome, being Jerome, attacked Augustine.
And that statement is true - or not -- depending on how one understands Paul's use of "works" in the particular context.
Scripture tells us that salvation is by grace alone.. .
And Catholics agree . . .
and works are merely the fruit of what God does in us
"Merely" here is both unnecessary and perhaps a bit misleading; but, again, Catholics agree that works that are meritorious are so by virtue of God's grace.
and not the means for meriting eternal life.
Here's where things get a bit more complicated and where you have some 'splainin' to do. For example, Paul, following His teacher Jesus Christ, says that eternal life is rendered in accordance with "works."
6 For [God] will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. Rom. 2:6-8 (compare Matt. 16:27, 25:31ff).
Paul here clearly draws a direct correlation between "works" and the receipt of "eternal life." The key is understanding how "works" here are differentiated from "works" or "works of the law" as used in other verses.
Grace and works simply cannot mix in any way when we consider the grounds of our justification before the Lord.
To the contrary, unless one "mixes" them on some order, the result is the need to deny or twist beyond recognition verses like the one I just cited. One advantage of Catholic soteriology is I can read verses like this one pretty much directly (just paying heed to proper understanding). I find the "faith alone" crowd has to do backflips here.
If works are required, salvation becomes a reward that our Creator is obligated to give us and not a gift that is wholly unmerited by us.
Unless the reward of eternal life is understood as God simply being faithful to His own promises, rather than creating a type of legal obligation.
We will have to agree to disagree
If by that you're accepting ours is a plausible harmonization of the Scriptures on this point, then I see no need to press the point. :)
And there John is speaking of God's work (singular). Paul in Rom. 2:6-7 is referring to our works (plural). God/singular v. us/plural. They are not speaking to the same thing.
For a hint as to what Paul is addressing, see the parallel phrasing "God will render according to works" by Jesus at Matt. 16:27 and the elaboration on that point at Matt. 25:31ff.
Don’t misunderstand me. I find virtually nothing about the Roman system either plausible or good for the soul, but believe as you will. As for me and my house, we will trust the Lord and Him ALONE.
Romans 2:6 is talking about rewards for what has been accomplished on God's behalf. That would be after they have been saved. I don't think anyone would disagree that Christians are going to be rewarded at different levels. Matt. 16:27 specifically uses the word in Greek that means deeds or actions and is talking about rewards which have nothing to do with salvation.
They have an explanation ...
I'm believing based on consideration of ALL the pertinent verses, not just a selected few. I find that the more plausible approach.
John 6:28 - Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?"
If you have to do the works as part of your salvation ... then there can never be pure motives in doing them ... there is always a selfish aspect to it. You do them because you have to ... without them you don't make it.
Freedom in Christ is doing the works knowing we don't have to ... we want to ... we want to share the gospel with others, we want to study the scriptures, we want to help the poor ... not because we must ... but because we can now do it without selfish motives ... our motives at least have the potential to be selfless.
**They can never explain the deeds of the thief on the cross who made it to heaven with Christ that day—and he wasn’t even baptized!**
Jesus wasn’t gone yet.
The Lord COMMANDS rebirth in John 3:5 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”. He tells us how it is to be accomplished AFTER his departure, in his commissions: Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; Luke 24:47; and John 20:23. For he said the Spirit (the Comforter) would not come until he is physically gone (John 16:7).
That rules out the thief needing to be born of the Spirit. Jesus Christ was still there. AND...Christ hadn’t died yet. He hadn’t fulfilled the Law that God ordained, until his death. That’s what his words “It is finished”, and then dying, mean.
“For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength AT ALL while the testator LIVETH.” Heb. 9:17
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.