Posted on 01/06/2015 2:57:33 AM PST by Faith Presses On
**Is it sinful to worship Jesus Christ or is that idolatry?**
Of course not. God the Father is IN Christ, and has made his abode there. And has placed ALL of his power there.
Even trinitarians believe that Christ has a dual nature: fully man (fleshly body with a soul, and a mind of his own), and fully God. The thing trinitarians fail to see, is that the ‘fully God’ part is the Father IN Christ, which is what Jesus Christ taught, and quite emphatically in John 14.
Not really ... you are playing a semantic game to support an argument from silence ... about the weakest logical assertion a person can make.
Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life and no one enters to the Father, but by me”....sounds like a part of the Trinity to me.
Also ... by your logic ... it is significant that Jesus and his disciples never mentioned Doritos.
**Did Jesus ever claim to be deity?**
He claimed to be the Son of God, and that the Father literally dwelled in him, doing the divine works, and that he and the Father were one.
He NEVER taught that he was God, separate and distinct from the Father. But, that is what the phrase ‘God the Son’ would lead one to believe. That’s why Jesus Christ NEVER defined himself that way.
**Also ... by your logic ... it is significant that Jesus and his disciples never mentioned Doritos.**
Get in the Word, man. You are fighting without a sword.
**Exactly. Along with the Holy Spirit.**
And where does the Holy Spirit come from, what is it’s source? Surely you won’t accuse Jesus Christ of being a liar.
The Holy Spirit came after Jesus died and arose to Heaven, because he said the ‘comforter’ could not come unless he went to the Father.
John 1:1 is the only sword required here ...
And this is where you depart from Biblical truth ...
Why did the high priest rip his clothes off when Jesus said he would see Him coming in the clouds of heaven?
Because the high priest understood that Jesus WAS claiming to be God with that statement. The early Jewish rabbis correctly understood that only absolute deity could come in the clouds of heaven. His reference to Himself as the Son of Man is NOT a reference to His humanity ... but the Son of Man coming in the clouds (from Daniel 7:13) was a claim to deity. Only absolute deity could come in the clouds of heaven.
Would be a silly thing to rip your clothes over ("youll see me coming in the clouds of heaven") if the high priest didn't recognize what Jesus was claiming for Himself.
With this statement ... Jesus was claiming deity.
You should also diagram John 1:1 ... in the Greek ... Johns words are unambiguous ... Jesus is God.
First thanks for posting. Unfortunately, once again we have an article promoting a hyper atheist book. The article is about selling this author's book. There's enough 'red meat' to sell to atheist enthusists; as well as horribly used theological terms in which gets the "Irish up" of Christians. So let's not buy the book:) We are dealing with supposed 'theologians' from supposed schools of 'theology.' Those who have either a hatred or at least an anomosity to God in general or passionately. An earthly example is akin to Nancy Pelosi writing a book on the successful presidency of Ronald Reagan. Can you imagine such a book!
Second, the journalist posting this piece is sorely mistaken. No one is arguing against the Divine Nature of Christ Jesus Son of the Living God. Put more correctly what was addressed at these various councils was the Deity of the Son of God, Jesus Christ. As which we see here:
Colossians 2:
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
In which, we have in verse 9 above "Godhead" and by the lexicon this is specifically 'theotēs' which is clearly defined as Deity. I think that is period end of story.
Yes, the second half of John chapter 8 is instructive. “The Jews” call Jesus a bastard, a Samaritan and possessed of a demon. Jesus calls them children of their father the devil. No big deal, just a run-of-the-mill first century Jewish theological argument. Until Jesus says, “Before Abraham was, I AM.” “The Jews” knew EXACTLY what He meant - that is the moment they picked up stones to kill Him.
Colossians 2:
2 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Godhead=theotēs: I.deity; A.the state of being God, Godhead
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2320&t=KJV
That about explains it all.
Because since He is called God then it is logical.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (John 20:28)
(Don't try "he was only saying "O my God!")
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Revelation 1:7-8)
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24)
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (John 8:58-59)
Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye? They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. As soon then as he had said unto them, I am, they went backward, and fell to the ground. (John 18:4-6)
Note that the "he" as in "I am he" in the above tests is not in the Greek, and while that can be demanded by the context, it is not here, and the only identification in Jn. 8:24 of the person they had to believe Christ was is that of I AM, which was answering their question, though these Pharisees were a little slower on the uptake.
When Christ made it more explicit was referring to His preexistence as the I AM, then they realized the import of His statement, which considered blasphemous as He was claiming to be Deity.
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (John 8:58-59)
The Son makes it plain throughout the book of John that: God the Father is a Spirit. 4:23,24
And which obviously the essential nature of Christ, since He did not always have a body of flesh and blood,
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (Hebrews 10:5)
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (Philippians 2:6-7) And the Son of God taking upon flesh does not militate against Him being God from eternity past.
The Father gave him EVERYTHING starting at the BEGINNING. (God has no beginning)
I am glad you agree Christ is the Almighty then. Again,
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
And seeing as you see "beginning" as referring to the creation of Christ, then He must also have an ending.
Yet "beginning" can simply denote eternity, as everlasting normally does, and in the spiritual sense is never seen otherwise. Thus as referenced, Ps. 90:2 says,
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. (Psalms 90:2)
Likewise of the Christ,
But thou, Beth–lehem Ephratah, thou be little among the thousands of Judah, out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [decent] have been from of old, from everlasting. (Micah 5:2)
Moreover, as with rê'shı̂yth (Gn. 1:1) in the OT, which means the "first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing," can not "beginning" also have reference to position sometimes, as A does in being the beginning of the Alphabet, not time? As in such places as Luk_12:11, 20:20, Rom_8:38, 1Co_15:24, Eph_3:10, Eph_6:12, Eph_1:21, Col_1:16, Col_2:10,15, Tit_3:1,Heb_6:1. In Rv. 3:14 Christ is the "beginning of the creation of God" as in having first place, "that in all things he might have the preeminence." (Col 1:18)
In addition, is there even time with God, but He references it for our sake?
And as for being given things, this denotes order, in which all comes from the Father, thru the Son, by the Spirit, but all existed as God. We ourselves have a body, soul and spirit, (1 Thes. 5:23) and which can be separate, and one can even not know some things the other does, but we are one being.
Jesus Christ defined himself as the ‘Son of God’,
Which was a claim to Deity, as for the Jews to call yourself the personal son of God, or to claim preexistence, was blasphemy. Why do you think they went about to stone Him? Because they recognized what you will not, and which the Lord affirmed to them.
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father [idios patēr], making himself equal with God. (John 5:18)
Idios means "own" at least 76 times and privately 8 times, denoting personally, and thus,
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. (John 19:7)
And as Christ explained, if Scripture could call the judges of Israel "gods" in the positional sense, but not ontologically from God, then how much more was Christ worthy of that title seeing He came forth from God, who was in Him.
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (John 10:35-38)
Not simply by having His Spirit, which was not new, but which denoted ontological oneness of nature. Thus their response.
Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, (John 10:39)
Jesus told his disciples that when the look at him they are seeing the Father,
Indeed: "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me." (John 12:44-45) And which is because He is God as the visible person of the Trinity. Going back to Jn. 12:34, the question is asked, who is this Son of man? The answer is provided in explaining,
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. (John 12:39-41)
The Spirit of God is referencing Is. 6:10, likely the most referenced OT verse in the NT along with, and is provided here in its completed sense. But it states, "These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him," meaning Christ. But when did Isaiah see the glory of Christ and spoke of Him? Just before he was given the prophecy which he recorded:
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. (Isaiah 6:2-4)
Thus the LORD whose glory Isaiah saw was Christ, and spoke of Him. And thus he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. For He is God manifest,the word of God which expressly expresses Him.
Who (the Son) being the brightness of his (God the Father’s) glory, and the express IMAGE of his (God the Father’s) person
Indeed which does not militate at all against being God with the Father, as this refers to the Son expressly expressing God due to having the same uncreated nature.
But what you left out is what Heb. 1 goes on to say, which as with other examples, attributes to the Son Scriptures which originally were ascribed towards God.
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. (Hebrews 1:6)
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8; cf. Ps 45:6,7)
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: (Hebrews 1:10; cf. Ps 45:6,7)
No wonder Thomas proclaimed Him to be God! And all will do such worship:
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. (Revelation 5:13-14)
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 John 5:20)
The problem with you trinitarians is that you insist on the flesh and soul of Jesus Christ being a separate God.
I wonder when anti-trinitarians will get it right. Jesus was God as a spirit before the incarnation and which did not add to it, and spirit is still His essential nature, and which does not make Him a separate God, unless you cannot allow acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; (Colossians 2:2)
Six times God referred to Himself as "Us," before the royal "we" was know IMK, and in fact Is. 6 was one of them.
It took me hours with my cold (than normal) stiff fingers to write this, by God's grace, and i think i am done for a while.
Nonsense.
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Of course not
If the Father is only in Jesus, it would be sinful to worship Jesus since He would be no more than a created being, just as the angels and humans are.
unless you believe in modalism, where sometimes the Father is the Father, than sometimes He is the Son and then the Holy Spirit.
how do you reconcile John 1 where it says in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God?
And Amen to that. I wonder if the atheists and skeptics realize there are no autographs from Julius Caesar and scant if any manuscripts. What we know today of the Roman emperors was transcribed by the same monks who transcribed the Scriptures. Yet when they find a small fragment of pottery of some lost civilization they take it as 'gospel' truth. So by their standard we don't have real 'proof' of Caesar existing except for a sculpture here or there and some coins.
And their other laughable standard is the 'neutral' source or contemporaneous sources. As if CNN, BBC or Sky News were around to be an "independent" or "unbiased" source of information.
They would also have to throw out the history of the Peloponnesian War. As Thucydides was not an unbiased or neutral observer of history.
That is correct. And the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father. Jesus Christ could not be with them EVERYWHERE while in the flesh, but he could in the Spirit. “I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you........at that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I IN you.” Jn 14:18,20
The soul of the Christ is so knit with the Spirit of God, that by being filled with the Holy Ghost one has the God-driven mind of Christ as well.
**And this is where you depart from Biblical truth ...**
You said that after using half of my sentence. That’s deceptive practice, FRiend.
My sentence was this: “He NEVER taught that he was God, separate and distinct from the Father.”
And, you won’t address his defining of himself as the ‘Son of God’. It is not the same definition as ‘God the Son’.
It is the everpresent God the Father IN him that he taught.
He taught that the only way one could see the Father was to see him, and the realize that the works were done by the Father dwelling in him.
**how do you reconcile John 1 where it says in the beginning the Word was with God and the Word was God?**
Are you and your word two separate and distinct persons?
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