Posted on 01/04/2015 11:18:55 AM PST by wmfights
Correction on my point three, to be more precise, “stedfast unto the end” is from 3:14 not 6:11.
Also, for a better reference of “the world to come” in Hebrews, see 2:5, where it states Christ, not angels, puts “in subjection the world to come.” This world, and the world to come had special prophetic meaning to those of NT times.
I agree, the inter-testament period did not have the greater light they had in the NT... of course. My point was, where did such technical terminology as “the last day,” and “this world, and the world to come,” come from if it didn’t come from the inter-testament period? Such terminology the NT uses in a foundational way, adding detail to it, but not changing the basics of it.
Your view, seems to posit drastic renovations to that basic outline, as if they had it wrong, I think not.
On the timing of the rapture being the mystery revealed by Paul, I don’t agree with you. The particular take you have on 1 Cor. 15 seems pretty standard with both yourself and the pretribs. Nothing, however, is said in 1 Cor. 15:50-55, about the timing of the rapture being the mystery, it is bodily translation that is the mystery revealed.
This passage is not a revealing of a pretrib or prewrath rapture...as the mystery. Rather the translation of the body at the post-trib 2nd coming.
The timing of it is in verse 54, where Paul quotes Isa. 25:8, the setting of that passage in Isaiah is at the ushering in of the millennial - premill expositors agree on that. Following the cosmic catastrophism of the previous chapter, it more likely describes the singular event of the post-tribs rather than that of the prewraths, or the pretribs.
A good example of basic OT prophetic truth, in this case the resurrection/rapture of Isa. 25:8, NOT being reinvented in the NT, but being built upon, more detail supplied (the translation of our bodies). True, not only of Isa. 25:8, but of such inter-advent terminology as “the last day,” and “this world, and the world to come.”
Like I said, there is a wide sense and a narrow sense use of the term Day of the Lord.
If you are really interested, Stallard has done a good job for the Pre-Trib Study Group of highlighting how Van Kampen and Rosenthal incorrectly interpret the cosmic sign passages.
http://pre-trib.org/articles/view/an-analysis-of-use-cosmic-sign-passages-by-proponents-pre-wrath-rapture-theory
And you will also find a discussion of this very thing in Renald Showers book, Maranatha, Our Lord Come ... chapters 2, 3, and 4.
Incidently, Showers was the principle theologian who wrote the definitive critique of the Van Kampen/Rosenthal view. Showers and Rosenthal were colleagues at the Friends of Israel gospel ministry before Rosenthal resigned over the pre-wrath doctrine.
“Nothing, however, is said in 1 Cor. 15:50-55, about the timing of the rapture being the mystery, it is bodily translation that is the mystery revealed.”
Yes, I agree. I perhaps did not express that clearly. But you are correct.
Do you consider the last day and the day of the Lord to refer to the same thing? How would you define the Day of the Lord in relation to the second coming?
Thanks for the linked article. I read it, looked up the Biblical references, and read them also. The only argument in it I find convincing is showing how God’s fury was carried out in Old Testament prophecy through events similar to some of the earlier seal judgments. Unfortunately, this is not adequate to demonstrate that these events ARE part of the Day of the Lord, just that that Day COULD include those events.
While I felt the author was evenhanded in dealing with the topic, I was disappointed with the approach of allowing for every various camp of interpretation of passages like Matthew 24. The problem is that it is possible to respond to one point of debate using one view point and then use an entirely contradictory viewpoint to defend a different argument. For example, he allows for disagreement as to whether this passage refers to the rapture or the second coming.
I do not subscribe to the author’s view that Isaiah 13 places the specific signs of the sun and moon within the Day of the Lord. Clearly, in multiple passages, there are signs in the heavens both before and during the Day of the Lord. However, the nature of these signs are distinguished from one another. The author does have an excellent point though that similarity does not mean identification, and it is possible for God to even cause the same exact signs to happen more than once. This does allow a little opening for narrow range of alternative viewpoints on the contents of the Olivet discourse.
None of these things are, however, ideas I did not personally explore before coming to embrace the pre-wrath view. There simply is no other view that is more well-supported by scripture. If there is, I have not personally heard the tenets explained or the particular problems of the established views (such as pre-trib) adequately defended. I have heard some pretty good ones, and Marv Rosenthal was previously one of the most persuasive.
The least persuasive aspect of the article was the attempt to make two definitions for the Day of the Lord. The problem with these two definitions is that the only reason for them is to find a loophole to make the pre-trib view workable. That is simply not a basis for interpreting the Bible. And it fits in the same general category as the other overly-flexible approaches to passages such as Matthew 24 in which it means whatever the arguer needs it to mean for the given point of argument.
The handling of 2 Peter 3 is a perfect example. This is a clear reading into the passage, not from other scriptures to arrive at the correct meaning, but from the pre-trib viewpoint in order to make sure whatever the passage says, it is not allowed to contradict this sacred cow. You would really need a third definition of the Day of the Lord in order to make this chapter work.
The article does not even address how, in both letters to the Thessalonians, an equivalence is established between the return of Christ and the arrival of the Day of the Lord. Nor does it answer the timing of this event in relation to believers entering into rest and those on earth being judged with fire from holy angels WHEN Christ returns as described in 1 Thessalonians 1.
And in the second chapter of the epistle we see that Paul addresses their concern that the Day of the Lord had already arrived. Paul indicates that two events had to happen first.
On every one of these passages I have found that pre-trib views are all over the place as to the particular meaning and details. There no singular, cohesive, systematic pre-trib view which can be arrived at exegetically. If there is I really, truly do want to hear it, because I would actually prefer to be raptured out of this world sooner rather than later. But alas, it appears that watchful readiness must be tempered with endurance and patient waiting for Christ’s return.
In spite of not being persuaded by the arguments of the article, I do appreciate your sharing of it as I did learn some things and become more familiar with certain passages of the Bible. I certainly do not intend to be overly harsh or dogmatic toward you or the author. I see you both as brothers headed for the same goal. We all share the same blessed hope in Christ’s return. And I am sure we will come to a deeper understanding of these things as the time comes closer.
“WHEN Christ returns as described in 1 Thessalonians 1.”
I meant 2 Thessalonians 1 here.
Of course you have. You just may not have recognized it. The time of Daniel's seventieth week is spelled out in the exact number of days. Once that peace treaty is signed the number of days to the middle of the week are specifically given. To apply Jesus comment "no one will know the day or the hour" makes no sense at that point. The same holds true for the post trib.
Read through this and see if it sheds any light.
This is where our words must be forms very precisely ... there are not two definitions of the Day of the Lord ... but two aspects to a unified single definition.
The book by Showers does a good job of explaining this ... in summary, the Day of the Lord is ANY day that The Almighty intervenes into the affairs of men in a supernatural way. He explains that there have already been several Days of the Lord in the OT that have already been fulfilled. Some are single days ... some are periods of time.
Anyway ... glad you liked the article ... that is what we are all here for; combat false doctrine (RCC) and sharpen each other through brotherly theological sparing. Most of us that are pre-trib would see Showers book as the definitive treatment of the topic ... so it is worth having for your own research. I certainly have Van Kampens original and most of Rosenthal's works; I find them both very helpful for documentation of the position.
I guess my stand would be a slight modification of an old saying ... "pray for pre-trib" ... prepare for "pre-wrath" ... lol.
You presented many arguments to which I did not deal with, and all good ones, prewrath has many good arguments; not that I couldn’t have, it’s just the nature of wild and wooly forums like this, that the most one can accomplish is to “put in a few good licks” for your position and leave the rest to God.
They were pretty good licks too, whether it dawned on you or not. Such as:
Christ appearing “the second time,” Heb. 9:28, really means the second time - there is no third time.
And Heb. 10:12,13, prewrath arguments to the contrary, really does mean what it says, Christ really does stay in heaven until his enemies are gathered together to be put under foot.
And the “Lord” part of the day of the Lord really means him in PERSON, which is described in Rev. 19:11, “heaven opens” and he comes IN PERSON.
And the “end” really does mean the “end.” in a most poignant way! The very end of this age, not seven years or even one year before the END.
And just as the end really means the end, likewise “the last day,” it really does mean THE LAST DAY.
I take my leave from this thread now, with this thought. Unlike pretribs, it is always a pleasure conversing with prewraths. Reason being we are really not that far apart. Though we stick to our guns, how all this is actually going to work out in real time, God, in his special way, is going to take care of.
Pretribs aren’t going anywhere, no “first flight, no fight.” They have the antichrist in their future, like it or not. I think you and I would agree there.
I believe once we get into the tribulation, a great many pretribs are going to be forced to abandon their comfy view. And what is that going to leave? Prewraths and Post-tribs. Our differences are really going to come into sharp focus by then, it will be the issue of the hour...but not until then.
Until then, we have the tribulation ahead of us, no small thing! Until then, in real time it will work out we as allies against our common enemy, the antichrist, his mark, etc. I count prewraths good allies in that fight. God bless you.
That is a good article about Jewish wedding traditions. Thank you for sharing it.
I do agree that the seven day period matches nicely to the seventieth week, but it is not something explicitly stated in scripture. In other words, there is nothing that specifically indicates a marriage of the church to Christ takes place 7 years, 7 months, or 7 literal 24-hour days before the marriage supper.
I think it is interesting that those who use the Jewish wedding argument to support a rapture of the church seven years prior to Christ’s return to set up His kingdom, also argue that the church cannot remain during these seven years because the church is not Israel and is not under Israel’s covenant.
Like a parable, it is possible to misread or read too much into the picture of marriage. For example, the church has been through horrific persecution over the centuries. What does that picture in relation to a wedding? I use this example because many argue that Christ will not allow His bride to go through the Great Tribulation.
There are more explicit explanations in scripture about the timing of the rapture in 1 Corinthians 15, Matthew 24 (and other Olivet passages), 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5, 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2, and 2 Peter 3.
All of these point to the rapture occurring at the onset of the Day of the Lord at which point there is sudden, cataclysmic, and fiery destruction. But this is not how Daniel’s seventieth week begins. It begins with a relatively and deceptively peaceful time.
1 Thessalonians 5:3
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
[God will] give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
“Once that peace treaty is signed the number of days to the middle of the week are specifically given. To apply Jesus comment ‘no one will know the day or the hour’ makes no sense at that point.”
Contextually, when Christ said no one knows the day, He also said He comes as a thief and was referring to His coming at the end of the Great Tribulation (the one like no other) in the Olivet Discourse.
Matthew 24:29-30, 36-44
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
You seem to be forcing these statements to apply elsewhere because we do know how long Daniel’s seventieth week lasts. If the Great Tribulation ends at the same time as Daniel’s seventieth week, then we have two markers that tell us when His coming to establish His kingdom occurs - the signing of the anti-Christ treaty and the abomination of desolation.
But, if the end of the Great Tribulation happens prior to the end of Daniel’s seventieth week, at an unspecified time, then His statement makes sense, and His coming “after the days of that tribulation” can be sudden and unexpected, “like a thief”.
Every other approach require back flips to make a particular paradigm fit into the Olivet discourse.
Matthew 24:33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
Then in verse 36 He says that the day and hour of the beginning of those events described prior to verse 32 would begin to happen. Read the chapter again with that in mind.
“This is where our words must be forms very precisely ... there are not two definitions of the Day of the Lord ... but two aspects to a unified single definition. The book by Showers does a good job of explaining this ... in summary, the Day of the Lord is ANY day that The Almighty intervenes into the affairs of men in a supernatural way.”
Fair enough. I just ordered the book by Showers per your recommendation.
I have enjoyed the discussion. Take care.
Perhaps not but if you are honestly searching for understanding of prophesy as I believe you are if you keep that in mind things will start to make sense for you.
>>also argue that the church cannot remain during these seven years because the church is not Israel and is not under Israel’s covenant.<<
Well, that is part of it but there are much more compelling evidences that the "church" will not be earth bound during that seven years. One would be that believers are promised to not be subject to God's wrath. Yes we will have tribulation while here but not that from God. The tribulations we experience are from Satan and those he controls. The events of Revelation 6 through the end are directed by God. Not once in all of scripture are true, faithful believers subject to God's wrath. Even when Israel sinned God allowed them to be persecuted by Satan and his minions but did not affect that wrath like He will during the events of Revelation.
>>For example, the church has been through horrific persecution over the centuries.<<
Yes it has but none of that as a direct result of God's direction. He allowed it and even told us it would happen. Satan is after all the current ruler of this world and he has been doing all he can to eliminate the believers. Keep in mind that Satan can not control the weather and events like are going to happen during that seven year period. That is directly orchestrated and controlled by God.
>>I use this example because many argue that Christ will not allow His bride to go through the Great Tribulation.<<
He won't allow that. These words "Kept from the wrath to come", " which delivereth us from the wrath to come", and "I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth" show that true believers will not be around during that time.
>>All of these point to the rapture occurring at the onset of the Day of the Lord at which point there is sudden, cataclysmic, and fiery destruction.<<
Once again you are squeezing events into a one day event. The "onset of the day of the Lord" is not a description of a one day event. Understand again that the "day of the Lord" is a period of time. That seven year period does begin with an illusion of peace signed by the anti Christ but begins to soon deteriorate as Revelation 6 on shows. We will "enter into His rest" at the end of the tribulation period and the beginning of the millennium.
I was not trying to leave anything out, I just included those verses for brevity (something I am rarely accused of). We certainly should take the entire discourse into account.
“In verse 32 Jesus began to explain what to look for as signs of when those things described earlier would begin to happen. Look at verse 33.”
Matthew 24:33
Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
What is “it” here?
We need to go back to the beginning for context:
Matthew 24:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
There are essentially three questions being answered. What are the answers?
When will these things be?
It is not for us to know when. (See verse 36.)
We should not fall into the trap of foolish date-setting schemes.
What will be the sign of Christ’s coming?
There are actually 6 signs that precede Christ’s coming:
1) Deception, False Christs, False Peace - Matthew 24:5
2) War and rumors of war - Matthew 24:6,7
3) Famine - Matthew 24:7
4) Disease, troubles and natural disasters - Matthew 24:7
5) “Tribulation”, persecution and martyrdom of the saints - Matthew 24:9
6) Signs in the heavens, specifically the darkening of the sun and moon (immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation) - Matthew 24:29
What will be the sign of the end of the age?
Christ coming is the 7th sign that marks the arrival of the END.
Matthew 24:3, 6, 8, 13, 14
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the END [emphasis added] of the age?”
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the END [emphasis added] is not yet.
All these are the beginning of sorrows.
But he who endures to the END [emphasis added] shall be saved.
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the END [emphasis added] will come.
So the answer to the question of what is “it” in verse 33, is it is the END of the age.
The disciples wanted to know when. Christ said it was not for them to know. They wanted to know the signs of the END and of His coming. He answered them with six specific signs preceding His return and confirmed their expectation that His return does mark the END of the age.
The period called the END is another way of describing the Day of the Lord. It is the end of the world (not the end of the earth) or end of the age. It is the last portion of time before the new age and new world of the millennial kingdom begins. During this time God judges unbelieving Israel and all of the nations of the world.
An attempt to make “it” refer to the whole prior list of signs does not work and does not make sense:
Matthew 24:33 [if “it” refers to the signs]
So you also, when you see all these things, know that [THESE SIGNS] are near—at the doors!
See. It does not work. It does not fit. It is singular.
Could “it” be referring to the time period of these signs? No. Same problem.
Matthew 24:33 [if “it” refers to the time period of the signs]
So you also, when you see all these things, know that [THIS TIME PERIOD OF SIGNS] is near—at the doors!
Still does not work. Signs mean something. They point to something. Now try substituting the END for it:
Matthew 24:33 [if “it” refers to the END]
So you also, when you see all these things, know that [THE END] is near—at the doors!
Yes. That works. Because that is what He is referring to. That is the answer to the questions His disciples asked.
But here is the most important point: This time period is NOT the END of the age. It is what precedes the END.
This is additionally supported by the fact that He describes His coming AFTER the Great Tribulation to be like a thief and at an unexpected time:
Matthew 24:29-30
Immediately AFTER [emphasis added] the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. THEN [emphasis added] the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:42-44
Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Paul places the END on this same timeline as well:
1 Corinthians 15:23-25
But each one [is resurrected] in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the END [emphasis added], when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
“The events of Revelation 6 through the end are directed by God.”
When Job went through trials from Satan, they were also directed by God. That is, Satan had to get permission. It was not Satan, but God, Who brought up Job’s righteousness to Satan.
Likewise, when David numbered Israel against God’s command, he was given three options of what judgment would happen because of this sin. He actually chose the one directly from God because he thought God might have mercy and show restraint.
The fact that the opening of the seals indicate God’s sovereignty over these events does not prove that they are acts of His wrath any more than when the same judgments of famine, war, deception by anti-Christs, disease and natural disasters have happened throughout history. If not one sparrow falls to the ground apart from God’s sovereign will, then I think it is only reasonable to assume all of these calamities down through history are also under the control of His sovereign hand, even if we do not have a vision revealed of how these things unfolded in Heaven.
“He won’t allow that. These words ‘Kept from the wrath to come’, ‘which delivereth us from the wrath to come’, and ‘I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth’ show that true believers will not be around during that time.”
I agree about the wrath. We will not be here during His wrath being poured out. This is different, however, from being “kept” from the hour of trial.
1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
delivers = rhyomenon
Revelation 3:10
Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
keep = tereses (You will keep) / tereso (I will keep)
Believers are kept from evil / the evil one / trials without being removed from the world. Believers are saved from (out of) God’s wrath. In this world we WILL have tribulation but are preserved by Christ’s overcoming power. But we do not experience God’s wrath now or in the future.
I’ll simply leave you to come to your own conclusions.
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