Posted on 12/28/2014 1:23:51 PM PST by wmfights
Not sure where you get that idea, but Paul was the apostle to then Gentiles
Romans 3:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry
Paul is speaking of two separate events there; the gathering together (the Rapture) and the 2nd Coming...
Don't you find it troublesome ha the events are in reverse order per the pre-trib doctrine?
Pre-trib insists on the gathering first (rapture) and the coming second, yet this verse has them in reverse order?
You quoted the verse first, in post 43, as support for your pre-trib nonsense!
The you post
Here, we can see the elect are a remnant of the Jews...
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Did you even read the verse? It is clear that Israel has NOT obtained it, but the election has.
So, who, then, is the election?
Perhaps we can both agree that both the Church and Israel are elect, but this can be qualified as only those whose names are written in heaven, regardeless of their nationality?
The ELECT are saved peoples!
Not sure where you get that idea, but Paul was the apostle to then Gentiles
Got it from the scriptures...
Paul was a Jew...
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
And the elect is Jesus...And the elect are angels...And the elect is a lady...And the elect is Israel...
There is no doubt that Paul was a Jew, nor that he wanted Israel to be saved, to the exclusion of his own salvation!.. Nevertheless, he was an apostle to the gentiles.
And, the elect are true believers, Jew & Gentile, the Church!
Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
That's not what it says... Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. 12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
The Church you say??? The Catholic Church???
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Here, the elect is Jesus...
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Here, the elect is Israel...
Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
Again, Israel...
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
And here we have the Jews in the thousand years reign of Jesus, the Millennium, who are NOT the church...
Yes, the Church, but the catholic, not Roman Catholic, church.
We are askew on assumptions and foundations for our theology, especially as I do not follow dispensationalist thought, periodic breakouts of salvation modes, or the absolute ongoing distinction between Israel and Believers. Here is a summary:
1. People, Jew or Gentile, are saved by faith alone. (Heb 11:6, Eph 2:8-9)
2. Jews are not saved because of their nationality, only by their individual faith in Christ (Rom 3:9)
3. Gentile believers are made one with Jewish believers (Eph 2:11-22, Gal 3:28)
4. We Christians, raised in Christ, where there is no distinction (Greek nor Jew, etc. Col 3:11), are called "the elect", eklektos Col 3:12
5. The Greek word translated Church, ekklesia and the Greek word translated elect eklektos, are both taken from the same root word eklego, compounded of ek "out" and lego "to select, choose". This is the word Peter used in Acts 15:7 when he explains Gentiles are chosen the same way Jews are, to faith in Christ!!!
6. Those that are called out, started with the Jewish disciples, was enlarged with Jewish believers, and continued to grow with primarily Jews until Paul's ministry started. Thus, the term "church" refers to all believers, regardless of any distinction.
That is your interpretation, as it is not evident from the passage that it excludes anyone, only that "...mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."
The word "elect" from the Hebrew word bachir is used 4 times only in the OT, and you referenced all 4 above in post 68.
The best commentary available on the OT is the NT, we all agree. (?) Thus, as study of the use of the term "elect" in the NT is in order.
The greek word eklektos (Strong's 1588) is used 21 times in the NT, and is translated 16 times as elect, and 5 times as chosen.
The same word, eklektos, was applied to 4 different persons or groups in the NT: Jesus, Angels, Israel, and Christian(s). I will include a 5th category, where the identity of either the Church or Israel is not crystal clear from the context. The breakdown is as follows:
03 - Jesus
01 - Angels
00 - Israel
10 - Christian
07 - debatable Church or Israel
Thus, it is plain to see that in the NT "the elect" does not always refer to Israel, as some assert, in fact, never does it unambiguously refer exclusively to Israel!!
So, why would one assert that when, in Matt 24:31, the angels are sent to "...gather together his elect from the four winds..." this is NOT the whole church, but rather only Israel and/or the "tribulation saints"? Only because of the pre-supposition of the pre-trib rapture, that is conveniently absent in the preceding verses of Matthew 24.
| Verse | ELECT | CHOSEN | Jesus | Angels | Israel | Christian | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Matthew 20:16 | x | x | |||||
| Matthew 22:14 | x | x | |||||
| Matthew 24:22. | x | x | x | ||||
| Matthew 24:24. | x | x | x | ||||
| Matthew 24: 31. | x | x | x | ||||
| Mark 13:20. | x | x | x | ||||
| Mark 13:22. | x | x | x | ||||
| Mark 13:27. | x | x | x | ||||
| Luke 18:7. | x | x | x | ||||
| Luke 23:35 | x | x | |||||
| Romans 8: 33. | x | x | |||||
| Romans 16:13 | x | x | |||||
| Colossians 3:12. | x | x | |||||
| 1 Timothy 5:21. | x | x | |||||
| 2 Timothy 2:10. | x | x | |||||
| Titus 1:1. | x | x | |||||
| 1 Peter 1:2. | x | x | |||||
| 1 Peter 2:4 | x | x | |||||
| 1 Peter 2:6. | x | x | |||||
| 1 Peter 2:9 | x | x | |||||
| 2 John 1:1. | x | x | |||||
| 2 John 1:13. | x | x | |||||
| Revelations 17:14 | x | x | |||||
| NTSummary Count | 16 | 7 | 3 | 1 | 7 | 19 |
The greek word eklektos (Strong's 1588) is used 21 times in the NT, and is translated 16 times as elect, and 5 7 times as chosen.
...
The breakdown is as follows:
03 - Jesus
01 - Angels
00 - Israel10 12 - Christian
07 - debatable Church or Israel
Sorry for the confusion.
A good summary. And in each case "elect" is used we must approach it as we do with all Scriptures using the The historical-grammatical method. Which means that we are to also take such words and passages within the context of the OT as we do the NT.
That is your interpretation, as it is not evident from the passage that it excludes anyone, only that "...mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."
That's all you got out of reading that scripture???
In view of the following scripture,
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
When did the following scriptures take place???
Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Since you apparently view this as events past, should be a record somewhere of kids being born and not a single one of them dying til very old age...
Really? You asserted in post 68 that
QUOTE: "Isaiah 65:22...And here we have the Jews in the thousand years reign of Jesus, the Millennium, who are NOT the church..."
I simply responded that this verse definitely includes the Jews, but excludes no one. Are you suggesting that only Jewish unbelievers populate the millennium? Or that Resurrected Jewish believers are able to procreate without marriage? Or that...
Please explain who YOU think will be procreating in the millennium.
You got all that from reading my posts? I never suggested such a thing, or even obliquely supported it. Revelation 20 is plain that there is a Millennium to come, which will be reigned over by Christ and the participants in the First Resurrection, not the first resurrection phase 1, 2, 3 and 4, or whatever.
Nice diversionary tactic, but the fact remains that when the NT 4 times refers to "the elect" as Jesus or Angels, it overwhelming (12 times) refers to the Church, believers in Christ, regardless of their nationality, gender or their freedom (slave or free)! Thus, to authoritatively assert that Matthew 24:31 refers to Israel alone, or Israel and the "tribulation saints", is eisegesis based on the presumption of the pre-trib rapture, at best!
No diversionary tactic at all...It's a matter of putting ALL of the scripture on the table, not just those that will hopefully prove my or your position...
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
When does this take place???
Christians have resurrected bodies and will judge angels and the world...We are spiritual beings during the millennium...
So if everyone who follows Jesus Christ during the millenium become spiritual beings, who is it that plants gardens and lives to be a hundred without anyone dying in the millennium???
It is the elect who are living life as humans in the millennium while we Christians are hanging out and ruling with Jesus...
And it is those same "elect" that surround the "camp of the saints about, and the beloved city" (Rev 20:9) under the lead of a released Satan at the conclusion of the Millennium.
But I digress. If Rev 20 and 21 are in chronological order, then Isaiah 65:20-25 is NOT the Millennium, for Isaiah 65:17 reads “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind."
There is a line of thought that the "New Heavens..." Occur at the beginning of Rev 20, but I'm not sure about that one.
However, does this exclude procreation, especially after the Millenium is over? Isaiah 9:7 KJV states "Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end..." Does that mean his government and dominion will grow eternally, adding citizens and territory? Fun questions for speculation!
The verse only reads "...Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. Rev 19:7.
There are 2 problems with your assertion:
1. This does not read that the marriage supper has occured or that it occurs before the trimphant return, rather, that it is ready to occur. This could easily be after the conquering of God's enemies.
2. If you read Rev 21, it is plain that the "bride" is the New Jerusalem, not the Church!!! The Church is the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:27). The Church is never called the Bride per se, but Paul does allude to it in Ephesians 5:24-27, and 2 Cor 11:2. Contrarily, Jesus said we are the "friends" of the bridegroom (Mark 2:19).
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:9 "... Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
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