Posted on 12/28/2014 1:23:51 PM PST by wmfights
No, it doesn't fit the bible narrative...Some astute students of the bible suggest there may be a partial rapture during the Tribulation period but it can not be the main Rapture since the totality of scripture doesn't bear this out...
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
This passage makes clear that the recompence to those who trouble us, our rest, Jesus being glorified in us, and our admiring of him, all happen on THE SAME DAY! Our rest comes "...when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels.", on THAT DAY!
No...There's nothing in those verses that speak of a resurrection...
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
If you don't leave scripture out, one can see the context is in the church 2000 years ago (but applies to now as well)...
2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
The context is that now you are being persecuted and face tribulations but rest in us, for in the last day God will recompense those who persecute you...
- I also clearly demonstrated that the "Elect" in the NT is the church in 12 clear instances, and never specifically Israel (post 71-72).
That's only your opinion...Lotsa scripture ignored to come to that conclusion...
- Finally, If you want I can point you to numerous Church Father quotes that state they believed the Church would be persecuted by the Anti-Christ, just as John taught in Rev 13:7-10.
There have been so many forgeries in the records of your church fathers, what can be believed to be accurate??? And what may be accurate is no indication those father were any more correct than people are currently...
The only thing it teaches in your reference is that 'saints' will be persecuted...You apparently assuming all saints are part of the N.T. church...(I thought all saints were in heaven {Catholic teaching})...
- It is also fun to point out that the pre-trib rapture is seen nowhere in the Bible, and especially in Revelation or Matthew 24.
If it wasn't there wouldn't be so many millions of bible believers who claim you are wrong...
One of the things you leave out of this conversation is 'who inhabits the earth during the Millennial reign of Jesus Christ??? Just saying Christians inhabit the earth doesn't get it...
There are two kinds of believers that will enter the Millennium. Those who have come back with Christ who are made eternal, been transformed, and have glorified bodies.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
And those that are mortal that lived through the Great Tribulation and survived (sheep). Those mortals will become the non immortal race of man on earth which those who were made like Christ in the resurrection will co rule and reign over.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Just WHO are we to reign over??? Your theory leaves out far too much scripture to make your theory digestible...
One group of believers is going to be resurrected and return with Jesus to reign over those believers of Jesus who walk into the Millennium...
Thank you.
Then one must explain away why the "First Resurrection" of Rev 20:6 is not really the first one, but the 2nd or 3rd or...
One must also explain away why Jesus said he would raise up believers "...at the LAST DAY." 9John 6:40.
Quote: "No...There's nothing in those verses that speak of a resurrection..."
Agreed. But Jesus will be glorified in his saints and admired, and Paul encourages the Thessalonian believers that they will "...rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God... in that day." 2 Thess 1:7-10. Rest is not given 7 years before his return, but "in that day"!
QUOTE: "If it wasn't there wouldn't be so many millions of bible believers who claim you are wrong..."
Irrelevant, argumentum ad populum is not a proof. Most of them simply believe what they are told by their leaders, Jack Van Impe and Timothy LaHaye. By that logic, Jesus was not Messiah because the majority of Jewish people rejected him.
QUOTE: "And those that are mortal that lived through the Great Tribulation and survived (sheep). Those mortals will become the non immortal race of man on earth which those who were made like Christ in the resurrection will co rule and reign over.
Except that the reason the sheep are admitted into the kingdom is not belief on Christ, but rather how they treated the brethren of Christ. See Matt 25:31-40.
The sheep of the above mentioned passage. For further reference, see Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
So you prefer to dismiss plain scripture just because you can't digest it?
I don't have theory, per se, I simply take what the Bible reads at face value. As I mentioned in multiple references above, and again in post 103, the plain reading of scripture indicates that the rapture/resurrection/gathering occurs "immediately after the tribulation of those days", "at the last trump", "at the last day", is called the "first resurrection", and will not come until "there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed".
1 Thess 2:1 plainly puts in order the events of the "day of the Lord": "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him," Coming first, gathering second. Plain as day, yet you will "explain" that this refers to two distinct event in time, the "rapture" first, and seven years later "the Coming".
You are the possessor of a theory that requires the eisegetical explanation of these verses away from their plain meaning.
Again, I challenge you to show 1 verse that clearly teaches a pre-trib rapture. I just gave you 5 that show it is on the last day!
The sheep of the above mentioned passage.
For further reference, see
Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
The sheep are those who came against Jerusalem during the tribulation...Apparently these are Gentiles...The sheep are Gentiles who came against Jerusalem but treated the Jews well???
That's not what the Millennium is all about...The Millennium is a Jewish kingdom for JEWS...Where they will finally live in peace...
Seems to me that to justify your position you are all over the map while leaving out the numerous scriptures that show the Jews physically walk into the Millennium while the church has a spiritual presence there...
The Zechariah passage says that "...every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem...". The ones from the nations that did come against Jerusalem are "...the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse...were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth..." Rev 19:19-21. He did not destroy their entire nation, just the armies that came against Jerusalem.
After that is the "Sheep and Goats" judgement of Matt 25:31-40, which occurs
"Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Their admittance into the kingdom is as follows:
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
So yes, it is apparent from scripture that GENTILES come into the kingdom based on how they treated Jesus brethren. Whether those brethren are Jews, Believers, or both, is arguable. I believe it is how they treated believers during the tribulation.
Your dispensationalist "learnings" have blinded you to the plain meaning of scripture. There is no doubt the remnant of Israel will live in the Millennium, but that does not exclude other nations!
Who do you think the sheep in Matthew 25 are? Do you have any scripture to back up your dismissal of Zech 14?
1 Cor 6:2 "Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
If we saints are going to judge the world, and the nations, then those nations must have made it through the Day of His Wrath! Israel is only one nation, and the 12 Disciples will sit in judgement over those tribes. (Matt 19:28)
I imagine that you have some scripture that states that mortal believers will make it through the millennium, but will remain mortal? No, all you have are the assumptions REQUIRED by the non-biblical pre-trib rapture!
Here is your pre-trib timeline, correct me where I am wrong:
1. The imminent return of Christ results in the secret rapture of the church
2. There are no believers left on earth
3. The Antichrist eventually rises to power
4. He signs a 7 year peace treaty with Israel
5. Sometime during this time period, the 144,000 were sealed, and they become the greatest missionaries ever
6. After 3.5 years, antichrist breaks the treaty, and goes after Israel and the newly minted "tribulation saints".
7. Mark of the beast, seal, trumpet bowl judgements
8. Jesus comes back triumphantly, throws Beast and False Prophet into the Lake of Fire, destroys ALL nonbelievers, and binds Satan.
9. Those martyred tribulation saints are raised in the First Resurrection Part 2
10. The resurrected saints (Jew and Gentile) reign over the surviving believers (Jew and Gentile).
11. The surviving believers (Jew and Gentile) procreate, have lots of unbelieving offspring, who march with Satan against Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium.
How's that? The saints that are martyred get to be part of the First resurection
I imagine that you have some scripture that states that mortal believers will make it through the millennium, but will remain mortal? No, all you have are the assumptions REQUIRED by the non-biblical pre-trib rapture!
Here is your pre-trib timeline, correct me where I am wrong:
1. The imminent return of Christ results in the secret rapture of the church
2. There are no believers left on earth
3. The Antichrist eventually rises to power
4. He signs a 7 year peace treaty with Israel
5. Sometime during this time period, the 144,000 were sealed, and they become the greatest missionaries ever
6. After 3.5 years, antichrist breaks the treaty, and goes after Israel and the newly minted "tribulation saints".
7. Mark of the beast, seal, trumpet bowl judgements
8. Jesus comes back triumphantly, throws Beast and False Prophet into the Lake of Fire, destroys ALL nonbelievers, and binds Satan.
9. Those martyred tribulation saints are raised in the First Resurrection Part 2
10. The resurrected saints (Jew and Gentile) reign over the surviving believers (Jew and Gentile).
11. The surviving believers (Jew and Gentile) procreate, have lots of unbelieving offspring, who march with Satan against Jerusalem at the end of the Millennium.
How's that?
Every book in the Old Testament speaks of it, a lot...That's what I say...You ignore so much scripture then build your theology on what scripture you want to keep...
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