Posted on 12/28/2014 1:23:51 PM PST by wmfights
The precise teaching of the translation of the church is never found in passages dealing with the return of Christ to establish His kingdom on earth. It has been shown that the arguments for posttribulationism depend upon identification of the church with tribulation saints—which they assume but never are able to demonstrate. Frequently their whole argument is based on confusing the great tribulation still future with the common trials of the saints throughout the age.
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How do I say this?
Well,, the first part is easy... THANKS for posting these essays!
Now then,
could you possibly find some good Abridged (shorter!!!!!!) version of these essays?
It is just that there may not be enough time before the Second Coming to finish reading these most-extensive (long) essays.
THANK YOU!
I am trying my best to read them, though.
THey are quite good, IMHO.
THANKS for posting them!
Another great article these articles have been a real treasure.
Bkmk
You're welcome.
could you possibly find some good Abridged (shorter!!!!!!) version of these essays?
I suppose I could just find a 200 word section and then leave a link for the rest of the article. I didn't do that for a couple reasons. My experience has been that there are a large group of posters who never read the article and just jump in and start posting how their church is so "special" and the actual content of the article is never discussed. Also, by posting the entire article the discussion tends to attract those that have a familiarity with the topic and these posters will often raise some good points.
Finally, my hope is that by posting the full articles that premillennial Born Again Christians will see how much Scripture and history supports our views.
I know these articles can be challenging. They are a great resource to really grow in understanding, but can take a lot of time to get through. It's part of the reason I've only been posting one a week. FWIW, I will read just a couple paragraphs at a time when I'm having trouble with all the different issues.
thanks. we do our best...
That statement is absurdly uninformed. I will give you 3:
1. Matt 24:29 “Immediately after the distress of those days “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 30“Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.d 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
While you explain away plain scripture that this does not refer to the Church but rather the Jews because of the use of the word "elect", I suggest you do a word study of "elect" every time it appears in the NT. Not once does the word refer to the Jewish people!
2. 1 Cor 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
For insight into what happens at the Seventh (last) of the trumpets, see Rev 11:15-19.
3. 1 Thess 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
Every time the Bible gives any hint of timing regarding the rapture, it always is at the end of the tribulation! One must twist, turn and jump to explain away the plain meaning of these verses, based on the un-Biblical preconceived belief in the pre-trib rapture.
The reverse is true! It is MUCH safer and Biblically accurate to assert that
There is not a single Scripture in either the Old or New Testament which relates the translation of the church to a PRE-tribulational coming of Christ.
To wit, since I gave 3 references above that, read simply, must be interpreted as being post-tribulational, give only 1 that plainly teaches the pre-tribulational rapture. Just 1!
If posttribulationists had one positive Scripture on the time of the translation, it would save them much complicated argument.
John 6
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The Church Fathers were unanimous in their belief that the antichrist would persecute the church!
For your reference, here are a few:
Hippolytus: (AD. 170-236) "When the times are fulfilled, and the ten horns spring from the beast in the last (times), then Antichrist will appear among them. When he makes war against the saints, and persecutes them, then may we expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven." [Fragments from Commentaries, II, 7]
Justin Myrtyr (100-167) a contemporary of Polycarp, wrote:"The man of apostasy [Antichrist], who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians..." (Dialogue with Trypho, 110).
Irenaeus (138-202) Polycarps apostle and knew Justin Myrtyr,wrote: "And they [the ten kings who will arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight" (Against Heresies, V,26).
Hyppolytus (158-240) a contemporary of Tertullian, wrote:"The one thousand two hundred and three score days (the last half of the week) during which the tyrant is to reign and persecute the church..." (Treatise on Christ and Antichrist, 61).
“Matt 24: 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”
It would appear that Jesus is quoting from Daniel concerning Israel, not the church.
Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
Repeated 6 times in John regarding our resurrection!
I started out pre-trib in 1981. After studying it a few years. I became a mid tribber. I used to argue it a lot but I decided to stop being so devisive about it.
Repeated 6 times in John regarding our resurrection!
>>>>
Yeah, wonder how many times they need?
I see nothing in the quote that excludes the church, rather, it is an inclusion of Daniel's people who ONLY have their names written in with the "...every one that shall be found written in the book."
Reckon this book is a role of Jews alive at the second coming, or a reference to the "book of life" referred to in Rev 20:12-14 , which Jesus also possibly referred to when he told his disciples to "...rejoice that your names are written in heaven."
So... when are Jewish believers raptured?
1 more than can be explained away.
My recent study of the Bible has lead me to question the fanatical pre-tribulationists. Jesus said no one knows the time of his coming for his bride, and that we should keep oil in out lamps in case He comes at night. A prudent bride would also prepare to head for the wilderness when the Anti-Christ desecrates the Holy of Holies midway through the seven year tribulation. We also need to be ready to loose our heads in defense of the faith.
Also, adding a pre-tribulation prophecy to the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, seems to count as adding to “these things”, which earns one the plagues written in the book. (Rev 22:18) So, I for one will keep watching, and be thankful to give my life for Christ at any time, or to be caught up to Him at a time of His choosing. Arguing about timing is not productive.
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