Posted on 11/23/2014 2:00:07 PM PST by wmfights
Terycarl, see unlearners post above. That is how one intelligently debates a subject.
Unlearner good post. Especially the part where you exhort to read God’s word and pray.
Can you give any scriptural support to the Day of the Lord being or coinciding with the Great Tribulation?
There are many which I think clearly delineate between the two. 2 Thessalonians 2 indicates that the anti-Christ has to be revealed BEFORE the Day of the Lord. His revealing appears to be at the abomination of desolation which is at the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week.
As I mentioned earlier, the signs in the heavens follow the Great Tribulation but precede the Day of the Lord.
During Daniel’s seventieth week, the anti-Christ exalts himself, especially beginning with the abomination of desolation.
But in Isaiah 2, it says that the Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:10-21 is clearly alluded to by Revelation 6 as to what happens in the Day of the Lord.
There are two aspects of Christ’s coming — one in which we meet Him in the air, another in which He plants His feet on the Mount of Olives. There is one in which His angels gather the elect from the four winds, but another in which the angels gather the wicked to remove them.
The problem is that when Christ describes His return “immediately after” the Great Tribulation, He specifically links this to the signs in the heavens and the gathering of the elect. Where does this event happen in the Revelation?
In Revelation 6 and 7, there are signs in the heavens, the coming of God’s wrath, the sealing of elect Jews, and the arrival of believers in Heaven from all nations.
When do Jews turn to Christ? Isn’t it at His visible return? They shall look on Him whom they have pierced and mourn. (See Zechariah 12:10.)
If not then, when? When is the whole purpose of Daniel’s seventieth week fulfilled? When will transgressions cease and all Israel be saved? Will Israel remain in ignorance and unbelief right up until Christ returns with His armies and destroys anti-Christ? When will they look on Him and repent?
If Christ comes at the beginning of Revelation 6, where do these many believers come from who are beheaded for the word of God in 6:9-11?
When does God send people “strong delusion” as in 2 Thessalonians 2? If He sends strong delusion, where do all these believers come from?
There are many martyrs in 6:9-11, and then there are multitudes that “come out of Great Tribulation” in 7:14. How is this possible when God says He will send the strong delusion on those who did not receive the love of the truth? If the Church has been raptured out before all these things, who will preach the gospel to them so these people believe?
If they did not believe during the dispensation of God’s super-abounding grace, with God’s Spirit poured out and convicting mankind, with messengers sent out to reap the harvest; how will they repent when God has ended this era and the era of wrath has begun, with no messengers left to preach the Gospel?
God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation. In this world we will have tribulation, but we are to be encouraged because Christ has overcome the world.
Is this ‘no tribulation for the church’ theology a way to say that there will be no suffering for those in the church?
I believe that the church will be caught up before the ‘man of sin’ is revealed, and then the destruction hits overdrive.
But, to think that there will not be some tough times before that, one can just look at the loss of life in WW1, communist Russia, WW2, communist China, etc. There is no guarantee that such tough times won’t happen some more before the tribulation really starts.
Don’t get me wrong, I do believe that absolute chaos could happen any day. The inventions of man make that quite possible.
The ark didn’t begin it’s cruise on a sunny day.
Thanks for the ping. Another well written an researched article.
First, there are seven years left of the 490 years God promised to deal specifically with Israel as a nation. That includes the laws given to that nation. In order for that to happen the "body of Christ" or the "assembly" of New Testament believers where their is no Jew or Gentile must end.
Second, the "assembly" of believers is collectively the "bride of Christ" and as such will be the bride in the wedding ceremony. In the ancient Jewish wedding ceremony the bride and groom were sequestered for seven days before coming out into the world as husband and wife. That seven days is the earthly symbol of Christ and His bride sequestered in heaven for seven years prior to coming into the world.
Third, those who study and understand prophesy will know who the anti Christ is the day the peace treaty with Israel is signed.
>>Can you give any scriptural support to the Day of the Lord being or coinciding with the Great Tribulation?<<
Simply a search for passages that reference the "day of the Lord" will show that it coincides with the destruction of the wickedness on earth.
>>His revealing appears to be at the abomination of desolation which is at the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week.<<
As I said earlier in this post. A simple study of prophesy shows that the anti Christ will be known to those who study prophesy the minute he signs the peace treaty at the beginning of the seven years. That's three and a half years before He sets up in the temple.
>>But in Isaiah 2, it says that the Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:10-21 is clearly alluded to by Revelation 6 as to what happens in the Day of the Lord.<<
In Revelation 6 the Lord is not exalted He is feared. Nor do all of the idols disappear because we see later there is still idols of the anti Christ.
The phrase "in the day of the Lord" is highly misunderstood and much contested. Some believe the "day of the Lord" is a period of time. Others believe it to be the end of this age when Christ conquers the unbelieving world and His kingdom on earth begins. I believe that confusion comes from ascribing the phrase "in that day" to mean "the day of the Lord". I can't find proof of that connection anywhere in scripture. In Acts 2 Jesus says this:
Acts 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
That plus many verses that use the phrase "for the day of the LORD is at hand" when talking about the events of the tribulation period indicate that the actual "day of the Lord" is the end of the tribulation period and not the entirety of it. So the phrase "the day of the LORD is at hand" means that it is near. The events of the tribulation from Revelation 6 on are leading up to the "day of the Lord".
The only for sure saved from the nation of Israel are the 144,000 comprised of 12,000 chosen from each tribe. The term "look on Him whom they have pierced and mourn" doesn't necessarily mean they are saved. In Revelation 1:7 we read this;
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
So we see that it's all the people of the earth that will mourn, not just the saved.
>>If Christ comes at the beginning of Revelation 6, where do these many believers come from who are beheaded for the word of God in 6:9-11?<<
Just as their were those saved prior to Christ there will be those saved after the "assembly" is "caught up". God's word (scripture) will still be available and there will be preaching and witness led by the two witnesses.
>>When does God send people “strong delusion” as in 2 Thessalonians 2? If He sends strong delusion, where do all these believers come from?<<
Look at the context.
2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
The strong delusion is given those who "received not the love of the truth". The believers are those who did receive the love of truth and are killed for that belief. Those are the ones who would not follow the anti Christ.
But Noah and his family and all the animals had been taken in before any of the rains came.
Genesis 5:15 So they went into the ark to Noah, by twos of all flesh in which was the breath of life. 16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
I went through this process years ago as a teenager when I realized that the pre-tribulational rapture was a nice paradigm which can simplify many eschatological issues tied up with a pretty bow; but it cannot be proved from scripture. After years of study I had to resign myself to admitting I just could not understand the passages but I could see that the pre-tribulational rapture explanation had holes that could not be reconciled with many scriptures.
There are still many things I do not understand, but I have found that there are many answers that can be found straight from scripture rather than seeking to impose a paradigm on them, no matter how attractive the paradigm is.
“First, there are seven years left of the 490 years God promised to deal specifically with Israel as a nation. That includes the laws given to that nation. In order for that to happen the ‘body of Christ’ or the ‘assembly’ of New Testament believers where their is no Jew or Gentile must end.”
Paul clearly taught that the New Covenant explicitly does not annul God’s promises to Israel. The existence of a church where there is “no Jew or Gentile” does not preclude the actual existence of Israel or Jew or Gentile. That is not the meaning. It also says there is neither male, nor female. He is referring to the doing away of a hierarchical religious order whereby we ALL now have direct access to God through Christ.
Israel is a branch broken off, and Gentiles are called a wild olive branch which has been grafted in. Paul explains that Israel will be grafted in again.
Again, Christ taught that there were other sheep of His which he would bring into the fold, and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
There is no scriptural reason to require that God end His work in the Church on earth in order to fulfill His promises and prophecies from the Old Testament. Simultaneously to God working through Israel in the Old Testament, He also raised up other nations and worked His will in them as well.
The passage you cited in Acts 2 ties the dispensation of grace to the end times. It refers to Joel’s prophecy of the coming of the Holy Spirit and the coming of the Day of the Lord. Were these prophecies for the Church or Israel? Obviously both.
“That seven days is the earthly symbol of Christ and His bride sequestered in heaven for seven years prior to coming into the world.”
I do not find that the scripture teaches this plainly or explicitly. Therefore, it a doctrine of men. It could very well be true that the Church does spend seven years in Heaven with Christ before the final establishing of His kingdom on earth. But if so, it cannot be seven years that include the anti-Christ’s rise to power, signing of the seven-year treaty, or his breaking of the treaty and forcing the world to worship him as if he is God. These things clearly take place BEFORE the rapture and Day of the Lord according to 2 Thes. 2.
“As I said earlier in this post. A simple study of prophesy shows that the anti Christ will be known to those who study prophesy the minute he signs the peace treaty at the beginning of the seven years. That’s three and a half years before He sets up in the temple.”
This sounds good on a superficial level. And I hope my tone does not come across harsh or rude or condescending. I respect your opinion as well as many, many others who share your view. Yet, I find it impossible to reconcile this position with 2 Thes. 2.
What does it mean by “revealing” of the anti-Christ? On the surface, it does seem to imply the discovery of his identity. Yet, this does not fit the passage. The passage ties his revealing to an event. The event is the abomination of desolation which is explicitly taught to be in the exact middle of the seven-year treaty.
Notice the order of events. Here is the passage under discussion:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
This is the NKJV which capitalizes “He” when referring to the one who restrains because the translators apparently accept the popular view that the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. But this cannot be the case.
The Thessalonians were apparently worried that they had missed the rapture. They were suffering terrible persecution and some thought this was part of the Day of the Lord wrath they had learned about from Paul. He explains that the Day of the Lord (or here “Day of Christ”) could not have arrived yet because of two events which had not happened. One is something called the “falling away”. Remember that Christ taught that many would be offended because of Him and that family members would betray each other. This happens prior to the abomination of desolation. The second thing that had not happened is the anti-Christ had not been revealed.
The Thessalonians already knew (because Paul had taught them) that anti-Christ had not been revealed because the restrainer had not been removed.
Now if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, it would mean the church had also been removed. This would be like saying, “Brothers, you know you haven’t missed the rapture because the rapture hasn’t taken place. You know the Day of the Lord isn’t here because it is not here. You know the anti-Christ isn’t here because he is not here.”
What encouragement would that be?
If the Holy Spirit must be “taken out of the way” first, and thus the Church will be gone before the anti-Christ can be revealed, then the anti-Christ will never be revealed to the Church because the Church would not be here. It has to mean something different.
Paul here refers to a restrainer they already knew about. How is it that 2000 years later we do not know about this restrainer? Remember, the rapture of living believers was a mystery not revealed in the Old Testament. The Old Testament tells of the first and second coming of Christ. It tells of the resurrection. But it does not tell of the rapture of living believers. So Paul showed this mystery of how some believers would not die.
The Old Testament also reveals the seventieth week, the anti-Christ, the abomination of desolation, and the restrainer. Paul is not revealing a mystery here. He is referring to something believers of that day already knew. Christ and Paul and Peter and James and Luke and others alluded to things taught in Daniel. It was the exposition of Daniel that gives us much of our New Testament understanding of prophecy, including the rapture and other end times events.
There is an event which takes place in Heaven exactly in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week: Satan is cast out of Heaven along with his angels. Who casts him out? Michael. What does Satan do when cast to the earth? He goes after Israel. Who is the protector of Israel? According to Daniel 12, it is Michael. But Michael steps aside exactly at the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week, and the Great Tribulation begins:
Daniel 12:1
At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
Simultaneously, there is another event that occurs exactly in the middle of Daniel’s seventieth week: the abomination of desolation in which anti-Christ enters the third temple and declares himself God for the world to worship. This coincides with Satan’s working with signs and wonders.
So Paul encourages the Thessalonians to persevere. The Day of Christ had not yet arrived. Their rest would come when Christ returns. But the Day of the Lord (and the rapture) would not come before certain signs occurred first. He mentions two: a falling away (apparently of professing followers of Christ), and the abomination of desolation.
Think about this carefully. If you were to hear in the news that a world leader has signed a seven-year treaty with Israel, would this be the “revealing” of anti-Christ Paul writes of in 2 Thes. 2 which must occur BEFORE the day of Christ? If so, how is it that the restrainer has been removed if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit?
Here is the order: the falling away, the removal of the one who restrains (which may or may not be before the falling away), the revealing of anti-Christ, and the Day of Christ.
Keep in mind that the timing of the coming of Christ for His bride is synonymous with the coming of the Day of the Lord. These are not separated by years of time. It is indefensible to say that the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer who restrains until the beginning of Daniel’s seventieth week, but the actual Day of the Lord comes sometime after the abomination of desolation.
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.
The Day of the Lord comes as a thief. Christ comes as a thief. He does so at the end of the Great Tribulation. See Matthew 24:36-44.
How do all of the events of Matthew 24 line up with Revelation 6 and then Christ says He will return IMMEDIATELY afterward? Yet, Revelation has many more chapters in which God’s wrath and judgment are poured out on the earth which are not part of the narrative of Matthew 24.
How can He say when you see these things come to pass, look up if these same exact things happen in Revelation 6, but He does not return then (i.e. chapter 7)?
I was thinking on this yesterday and it occurred to me that all the tribulation believers endure and have endured ever since the first century is man's inhumanity to man. But, the Tribulation will be different because it will be God's righteous judgment UPON mankind leading up to the final judgment at the Great White Throne after the thousand year reign of Christ on earth. Ungodliness and evil will be so great upon the earth at that time that EVERYTHING that God rains down upon humanity will be rightfully deserved. That is why I do not believe the Bride of Christ will go through that time and will have already been caught up (raptured) when all that starts happening. Once the good influence from Holy Spirit filled believers has been taken away, the full brunt of desperately evil humanity will develop and hit overdrive, as you said.
We could be in the lead up tough times as you put it already. Christians have been beheaded in Africa for some time already, and now in the ME. The Chinese Christians have been in a constant state of persecution.
I don't know how many years that has been for you but I've been studying this for nearly 50 years now. That includes consulting the Greek and Hebrew not trusting the English translations. I have found there is no other interpretation that agrees with ALL of scripture than what is referred to as the pre trib rapture. I don't have time right now to address your post fully but will either later or tomorrow. A couple of quick remarks however.
The sequence of events in 2 Tim is not set.
The ancient marriage customs were well established already in Genesis exampled by the marriages of Rebekah, Leah, and Rachel. It consisted of the Contract, the Consummation, then the Celebration.
The "He who restrains" can only be the Holy Spirit.
>>What does it mean by “revealing” of the anti-Christ?<<
The Greek word translated is ἀποκαλύπτω (apokaluptó) which means I uncover, bring to light, reveal. The form of the word used means "shall have been revealed". Looking to other passages we know that it's the anti Christ who makes the covenant with many. We also know the time frame for God's dealing with Israel alone again is 7 years as seen in Daniel's prophecy.
That period of time is called the "wrath" of God. The tribulations that Christians have gone through are not the result of God's "wrath". It's the "wrath" of God that Christians have been promised to never have to endure.
That period of time is called the "wrath" of God. The tribulations that Christians have gone through are not the result of God's "wrath". It's the "wrath" of God that Christians have been promised to never have to endure.
What a great point. Walvoord also points out another aspect of the Great Tribulation that seperates it from the tribulations we suffer now.
From the article:
The great tribulation is always presented in Scripture as a future time of trouble while the state of difficulty and persecution experienced by the early church was clearly contemporary.
I read both your comments so far. Where do you see the ‘caught up’ or rapture happening within context of the seals, trumpets and vial (bowl) judgments?
There is no explicit catching up of believers in Revelation. So, whether a person is pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath; we can only infer when the rapture occurs by comparing other scriptures on the subject.
Revelation 7:9 & 14 refer to “a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb... who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
The pre-tribulational rapture position is generally that the 144,000 sealed Jews evangelize the world which results in a massive conversion of the lost which we see here as tribulation saints. However, there is nothing in the passage indicating the sealed Jews won these people to Christ. There were saints killed for the word of God and testimony of Christ BEFORE the 144,000 are sealed (6:9).
So where do they come from? This is a question actually posed to John by the angel, and seems to be somewhat of a riddle. How do what seems to be perhaps billions of believers get from the earth and tribulation to the throne of God? Did they all die from disease, war and famine? Were they all martyred?
Notice that martyrdom is characteristic of what happens during the fifth seal. Yet is says more will be martyred. Already more than a fourth of the world’s population has died during the fourth seal. But if war and disease and famine were the means of them entering God’s presence, why are they mentioned after the fifth and sixth seals? How are these distinct from those who died during the earlier seals? If they died, how did they die?
Some might speculate that these represent saints from ages past, but it is clear that this group specifically came out of THE Great Tribulation. They were alive on the earth during it. And now they have entered Heaven.
So there are two and only two possibilities: either these billions died and they are the souls of dead believers (but not the Church), or they are the Church raptured into Heaven out of the Great Tribulation. If there is any other alternative, I would like to know what it is.
If you take the position they all died, then it is necessary to explain the context. Did they die apart from all the judgments of seals 1 through 6? If so, why was the means of their death omitted? If they represent the cumulative deaths of believers since the rapture, why is their chronology placed here? Why does it come after the sealing of the 144,000?
So, in answer to your question, I am simply narrowing down the possibilities. Either they died during the Great Tribulation or they were raptured out of it. It does not explicitly say they were raptured. But, it also does not explicitly say they died (unlike the souls of those who were “slain” in 6:9).
What support can be provided to indicate they entered Heaven by death?
I will return to my earlier premise that Revelation 6 describes identical events Christ spoke of to His disciples in Matthew, Mark and Luke.
Let’s review them.
1) Deception, False Christs, False Peace - Matthew 24:5; Mark 13:5,6; Luke 21:8; Revelation 6:2 (1st Seal)
2) War and rumors of war - Matthew 24:6,7; Mark 13:7,8; Luke 21:9,10; Revelation 6:3,4 (2nd Seal)
3) Famine - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:5,6 (3rd Seal)
4) Disease, troubles and natural disasters - Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11; Revelation 6:7,8 (4th Seal)
NOTE: Numbers 1-4 are called the “beginning of sorrows”.
5) “Tribulation”, persecution and martyrdom of the saints - Matthew 24:9; Mark 13:9; Luke 21:12; Revelation 6:9-11 (5th Seal)
NOTE: Christ taught that “many will be offended” for His name’s sake in Matthew 24:10. This means many who identify as “Christian” and followers of Jesus will deny Christ because of the persecution, tribulation and betrayal by friends (so-called) and family. This incidentally corresponds to one of the two things that Paul taught must happen prior to the Day of the Lord (and thus the return of the Lord which is chronologically synonymous). That is the “falling away” or apostasy. See 2 Thessalonians 2. This time of tribulation of SAINTS escalates into the Great Tribulation when the abomination of desolation occurs. See Matthew 24:21; Mark 13:19; and Luke 21:22.
6) Signs in the heavens, specifically the darkening of the sun and moon (immediately AFTER the Great Tribulation) - Matthew 24:29; Mark 13:24,25; Luke 21:25,26; Revelation 6:12-14 (6th Seal)
7) Return of the Lord / Day of the Lord - Matthew 24:30,31; Mark 13:26,27; Luke 21:27,28; Revelation 6:17 (subsequent to the 6th seal, prior to 7th seal)
Christ taught in Luke 21:28, “Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.” These signs are a unique sequence of events within human history. They have never happened before and will never happen again. They indicate that the return of the Lord is at hand. So, Revelation 6 MUST represent the SAME sequence of events because Christ taught they are the way those alive at the time will know He is about to appear.
Remember that Christ taught the Olivet discourse in answer to His disciples’ questions of when these things would happen and what would be the signs of His return and end of the world. He told them they could not know the time. However, He did give them the signs that would proceed the end of the world and also His return. The signs corresponding to the opening of the seven seals in Heaven thus CANNOT be merely coincidentally the same. These are specific signs of the end of the world and of Christ’s return.
What happens when the world sees the Day of Wrath has arrived? They hide and flee in terror according to Revelation 6:15-18. They attribute their terror to Christ (the Lamb). What did Christ say people will do when He returns at the end of the Great Tribulation? Christ said “all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:30)
I am not taking a man made paradigm and trying to force it into these passages. I am taking the actual passages and trying to interpret them by comparing other passages. I have never seen anyone demonstrate a pre-tribulational rapture exegetically. It is always done by postulating the position as true and then using proof texts in the same manner cults do with their false doctrines. I am not trying to be slanderous or call pre-tribbers heretics. I am just pointing out that how we arrive at our doctrinal position is very important.
Christ says that there will be signs in the heavens IMMEDIATELY after the Great Tribulation followed by the sign of His coming in which the elect would be gathered. If this does not happen after Revelation 6, when does it happen?
How can you fit all of the other trumpet and bowl judgments into this same period? While these may not be strictly chronological, it appears these for the most part represent a separate time period which could be described as the Day of Wrath (for the world) or the Day of Christ (for the believer) or the Day of the Lord in general.
When He comes with His saints at the end of this period, in Revelation 19, there is no catching up of believers, but the removal of the wicked before Christ’s kingdom is set up.
So I believe it is well-supported that those who enter Heaven in Revelation 7 are believers who come out of the Great Tribulation by way of rapture rather than death based on a comparative analysis of the Olivet Discourse and the six seals of Revelation 6.
If I am wrong about any of this I hope to be corrected by those who know more than I, and by continued prayerful study of the Bible. I do not claim to know all of the answers, but it does seem clear to me that it is extremely important for believers to understand that we will face extreme persecution before the return of the Lord. We look for His return, not as an escape from tribulation, but as an escape from the wrath God is about to pour out on an unbelieving world. We need to watch and be ready, but we also need to wait patiently if His return is delayed longer than we had anticipated.
Have you ever read, where Jesus, said anything about, the books written after His Rising?
mark
I’m not sure what you mean. All of the New Testament was written after He rose. His disciples were chosen to be witnesses of what they heard Him say and saw Him do, especially His death and resurrection. Their eye-witness testimony is an essential element of the Gospel.
John, who wrote Revelation, was the last living apostle. He also heard the Olivet discourse directly.
Christ gave unique authority to the apostles. As opposed the Catholic concept of apostolic succession, we protestants generally regard the New Testament as carrying that direct apostolic authority.
John 15:20, 26, 27
Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also...
But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
John 20:21b
As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
Acts 1:8
But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.
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