If Mormon missionaries were straightforward about Mormonism…[Best 4-minute video on topic]

Mormon Coffee Blog ^ | Oct. 30, 2014 | Sharon Lindbloom

[StormPrepper]

"There's so much wrong with that core assumption, and everything that Mormons build off of it, that I'm not sure where I should begin."

Classic strawman.

I didn't say anything about LDS doctrine. I stated a historical fact, Jesus visited John in 70AD even though Linus claimed to be leading the Church in 67AD.

Jesus never appeared to Linus. And as a matter of historical record, He has never appeared to any Pope ever.

So when I look at these facts how can I come to any other logical conclusion other than apostasy on the part of Linus and those that followed him?

[MosesKnows]

What harm do Mormons inflict?

Would you share your reason to run away from this question?

[Alex Murphy]

Would you share your reason to run away from this question [What harm do Mormons inflict]?

Who's running away? I asked a serious question in reply. Some people don't have the luxury of living in a meadow on a mountain.

[MosesKnows]

What harm do Mormons inflict?

Will you tell me why you neglected answering this question?

[StormPrepper]

"What harm do Mormons inflict?"

We refuse to accept same sex marriage as legitimate. o.O

[MosesKnows]

Would you share your reason to run away from this question [What harm do Mormons inflict]?

So your answer is no?

[Alex Murphy]

Would you share your reason to run away from this question [What harm do Mormons inflict]? So your answer is no?

Q: What harm do Mormons inflict?
A: No.

Nope, sorry - that doesn't work. When did I say "no"? What I said was "some people don't have the luxury of living in a meadow on a mountain." Try again.

[Alex Murphy]

What I said was "some people don't have the luxury of living in a meadow on a mountain."

I neglected to mention my earlier question about others' preference for sulphur-flavored Jell-O. I shouldn't have left that out.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

I've noticed in your threads that when a Mormon comes to defend their position they completely and summarily dismiss any scholarly refute of Mormonism. They are usually arrogant, consider themselves the only true patriots and mock rather than have a real debate. Thanks for posting.

I've noticed the same thing on virtually EVERY encounter I've had with them, not just on this forum, but every forum where there are Mormons. They dismiss, behave like nobody knows what they're talking about except them (though they don't refute anything or add anything), and mock like crazy.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Many I have spoken to over the years. I ask them to name a Christian who lived in the second century, third century or fourth century, they can’t name any. They attack Catholic doctrines such as baptismal regeneration and the Real Presence so anyone holding those beliefs can’t be Christian......

Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Augustine. Augustine held to baptismal regeneration, but he also believed in predestination and election according to the grace of God (we don't choose God, He chooses us, and works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure), and all the accompanying doctrines today called "Reformed."

The Reformed by the way do believe in Christ's Real Presence. We just don't believe in Transubstantiation.

[Colofornian]

Well either john is still alive as mormonism portends...which means he never lost authority and no need for a “restoration” existed...or...John died in the first century...and...if that happened AND the Book of Mormon is accurate...then john wasnt the “last one in authority”...Moroni was circa 421 ad...and then if you figure in 3 Nephi 28 vv 7 and 8....then moroni wasnt last one in authority...those nephite disciples who allegedly never died were and actually CONTINUE to be in authority..thereby again rendering a so called “restoration” 100% irrelevant...superflous...unnecessary..you Mormons via your mormonism paints yourself into a.corner

[Colofornian]

Yes...simple...away from access to my normal computer sources...be patient

[greyfoxx39]

They are usually arrogant, consider themselves the only true patriots and mock rather than have a real debate. Thanks for posting.

I've noticed the same thing on virtually EVERY encounter I've had with them, not just on this forum, but every forum where there are Mormons. They dismiss, behave like nobody knows what they're talking about except them (though they don't refute anything or add anything), and mock like crazy.

This mormon attitude comes from the ingrained belief that as mormons they are superior to everyone else in the world. Mormons are brainwashed from toddlers on up with the mantra that they belong to the "one true church on earth"! They are taught that their god(s) require that they MUST even go back to the time of the first earthly humans and "baptize" by proxy, and through arcane mormon temple rituals enter by proxy every soul that ever lived into their sect.

“No man can enter into the Kingdom of God but by the door and through the means that Jesus Christ has offered to the children of men. … Not a soul that has ever lived and died from off the face of this earth shall escape a chance to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ. If they receive it and obey it, the ordinances of the gospel will be performed for and in their behalf, by their kindred, or their posterity in some generation of time after them, so that every law and every requirement of the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be carried out, and the promises and requirements fulfilled for the salvation of the living and also for the salvation of the dead.” (Teachings of Presidents: Joseph F. Smith, p. 307, 1998; original source “Latter-day Saints Follow Teachings of the Savior,” Scrap Book of Mormon Literature, 2 vols. 2:561-562).

“The work of saving the dead has practically been reserved for the dispensation of the fullness of times, when the Lord shall restore all things. It is, therefore, the duty of the Latter-day Saints to see that it is accomplished. WE cannot do it all at once, but will have the 1,000 years of the millennium to do it in. In that time the work must be done in behalf of the dead of the previous 6,000 years, for all who need it.” (Lds “prophet” Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:166) (H/T colofornian)

Mormonism belief is that the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" was removed from the earth and "restored" by Joseph Smith. This baptism of the dead is its method of "saving" departed souls...and also coincidentally keeps the coffers of the mormon church full by requiring (and proving) payment of tithing to the church before a member can enter these temples to perform these "proxy" baptisms.

[Alex Murphy]

....[if] John died in the first century...and...if that happened AND the Book of Mormon is accurate...then john wasnt the “last one in authority”...Moroni was circa 421 ad...and then if you figure in 3 Nephi 28 vv 7 and 8....then moroni wasnt last one in authority...those nephite disciples who allegedly never died were and actually CONTINUE to be in authority..thereby again rendering a so called “restoration” 100% irrelevant...superflous...unnecessary..

See related thread: So what’s your experience with the Three Nephites?

you Mormons via your mormonism paints yourself into a corner

And they don't care if they get paint on their clothes. Their faith serves as a Holy Prozac, there to make the nasty contradictions of their belief system fly away like a blue butterfly....

"Mormons focus on accessible, social aspects of their religion. Although the Mormon system of doctrine is genuinely attractive to many of its members, many have argued that the primary "glue" of Mormonism is the heritage, culture, and family ties, not the doctrine and theology. In other words, the typical allegiance to the Mormon organization primarily stems from something other than doctrinal concerns. The average Mormon sitting in a pew does not care how or why their religion works, they only care that it works for them."
-- from the thread Atheoligical Tendency

[reaganaut]

Bingo. LDS believe they are the ‘only true church’ and the only ones with authority, their epistemology (such as it is) is based on feelings, not facts. If the facts don’t match what they ‘feel to be true’ the facts are dismissed. One of the most difficult things for those who leave Mormonism for Christianity to relearn is that we put facts (and the Bible) over our feelings to determine what is true.

[reaganaut]

How about asking an exmormon. If you want to know why the guy who was a Ford mechanic for 20 years now drives a Chevy - ask them.

In short Mormons lie, obfuscate and conceal things to get convert. (see my tagline).

[Colofornian]

What harm do Mormons inflict?

1.

Mormon proselytism isn't evangelism -- Mormonism itself describes its missionary system as proselyting -- and it focuses on the spiritually vulnerable/gullible:

As the apostle Paul was leaving the church of Ephesus, he warned them with this high-priority alert:

"I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." (Acts 20:29-31)

Paul's cultural priority? (Defend against the false disciples who will proselytize the flock and draw away men unto themselves!)

Tell me something, MosesKnows: If you did something tearfully night and day for three years -- like Paul did -- do you think it's rather important?

Or will you continue to either let the flock be shepherd-free, or not care if they are?

So what? We're just to conclude, "Oh, the man who contributed a good chunk to the New Testament -- what does he know about cultural priorities?"

2.

From my study of world religions, sects, cults, I've concluded many are quite legalistic. Jainism, for example, is extremely so as a world religion. Mormonism, likewise, as a cult/sect.

Lds leaders impose law after law after law upon Mormons -- who must obey in order to be deemed "worthy"...
(1) You HAVE TO be obedient to all the commandments & ordinances of the Mormon god
(2) You HAVE TO tithe -- what Lds reference as the "Law of consecration"
(3) You HAVE TO obey the "Word of Wisdom" -- not drink coffee, etc.
(4) You HAVE TO follow the law of eternal marriage...get married -- sorry, no never-married single people allowed
(5) You HAVE TO have as many children as possible
(6) You HAVE TO perform temple work for the dead
(7) You HAVE TO perform endowments essential for this highest degree of salvation
(8) You HAVE TO be a member of the right church (Lds)
(9) You HAVE TO receive & perform the rites and ordinances established by that church
(10) You HAVE TO follow the 'prophet'
(11) You HAVE TO observe the law of the fast
(12) You HAVE TO -- as if it wasn't a "want to" -- "pray often"
(13) Instead of treating repentance as a God-given gift, you HAVE TO treat it as a "law" -- and if you commit the same sin over again, it nullifies any previous "repentance" you did regarding that sin, treating it as if you never repented
(14)You HAVE TO have Joseph Smith's consent to enter into your highest afterlife

And then, of course, there's the obvious Biblical laws (10 commandments) -- which the apostle Paul warned didn't lead to receiving the Spirit:

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is EVERYONE who does not continue to do EVERYTHING written in the Book of the Law.” (Gal. 3:1-6, 10)

Bottom line: The LDS are the "rules oriented" ones: The purity and perfection we seek is unattainable without this subjection of unworthy, ungodlike urges and the corresponding encouragement of their opposites. We certainly cannot expect the rules to be easier for us than for the Son of God... (Lds "prophet" Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 28)

Just look @ all the "rule extensions" Lds have imposed upon their followers in order to make it to the highest degree of afterlife...That is 19th-20th-21st century legalism!

******************

Finally, just as the Apostle Paul gave priority to "wolves"...so Jesus gave priority to calling out the legalists:

Yet you need to realize that Jesus Himself hardly gave free passes to the legalists of that time (the Pharisees). Note: Mormonism is the most prominent legalism of our era.

Note some of Jesus' words toward them...and then answer the Q, "Are you going to accuse Jesus of 'loathing' and being 'vitriolic' toward religious legalists?"

Verse consideration #1: Jesus called the Pharisees "blind guides" (Matt. 15:13). Somebody who is a guide is more involved with others than people who simply have a bad heart condition. The fact is these teachers of the law were the spiritual surgeons of their day. Would you want such a blind surgeon operating on you? The issue we're talking about here is not simply that the Pharisees' own heart condition was poor -- but that they were involved in teaching, guiding many others! We need to understand the cultural dimension of this in light of Luke 11:52 -- that the Pharisees took away the key to knowledge.

Verse consideration #2: [Yet another example of exported legalism] Matt. 23:4: They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on OTHER PEOPLE'S shoulders..."

Verse consideration #3: You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. (Matt 23:13)

The Pharisees consistently rejected the Lord's teaching of truth; and Jesus, much to your apparent chagrin, criticized them rather openly for it. Here's yet another example:

Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” (John 8:46-47)

You need to even look @ the broader context of the last part of John 8 -- where Jesus references the Pharisees as "children of the devil."

I don't think somebody can be more "harsh" in speaking the truth than to say to a group of religious people:
(a) "You don't belong to God"
(b) And the reason you don't belong to God is because you don't hear the truth He speaks ("hears what God says")
(c) And you reject the truth I'm telling you right now ("you do not believe me...why don't you believe me?")
(d) And on top of that (the broader context of John 8), you are of your father, the devil, whose native language is lies!

How did the apostle Paul deal with the legalistically-minded Galatians? Paul referenced the legalistic Galatians twice as "foolish" and once as "bewitched" a gentle exhortation?

Vitriolic?

More Jesus on the legalists:

Matt. 15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Matt. 16:12: ...guard against the yeast...against the TEACHING of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
Luke 11:52: ... you have taken away the key to knowledge.
John 8:44,47: You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies…The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
Matthew 23:2-4: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

Mark 7:6-8,13: He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: “‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.” …13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Matthew 23:2-7, 13-34 : 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.

************************

I think the question for "way of life" Christians is: Why aren't you more "Christ-like" in His priorities as mentioned above?

Why cherry pick as to what Christ is like -- ignoring the reality that as Jesus comforted the afflicted; he likewise afflicted the religiously comfortable?

[PROCON]

Congratulations on your exit from mormonism and welcome to the Body Of Christ.

I left atheism when Christ grabbed me in Feb. 1994. Still imperfect, but at least Saved :-)

[reaganaut]

Thanks brother. I have been out almost 22 years (and saved). I now run a ministry helping others who leave Mormonism transition into Christianity. God is Good!

[reaganaut]

//What harm do Mormons inflict? //

Spend a few days talking to Exmormons and you will see the damage they cause - esp to those who leave. Aside from leading people into a false gospel and away from Christ the aftereffects are great...suicide, depression, shunning, loss of family, loss of jobs, loss of housing, loss of schooling, guilt, shame, divorce (all church sanctioned). Many who leave take years to relearn the basics like how to make friends outside the LDS church (if they live in a high LDS area like Utah), their kids are shunned by other kids, they are lied about, gossipped about, and many still believe the lie “if Mormonism isn’t true, nothing is”.

I have a full time ministry helping those who left Mormonism for Christianity (and they are vastly different), I see the fallout of Mormonism every day and the harm that cult causes.

Exmormon.org - check out some of the posts there for starters, if you want more sources, PM me I have plenty.