Posted on 05/17/2014 4:31:22 PM PDT by Gamecock
That is absurd. They were not even unified in all they taught, nor does Rome have her stipulated “unanimous consent ” of the fathers.
Then you have such examples of perverse reasoning and exegesis as that of no less than the Bible scholar Jerome:
The same Apostle in another place commands us to pray always. If we are to pray always, it follows that we [priests] must never be in the bondage of wedlock, for as often as I render my wife her due, I cannot pray...Now a priest must always offer sacrifices for the people: he must therefore always pray. And if he must always pray, he must always be released from the duties of marriage.
To be consistent, Jerome's logic is that a minister (which are never called priests as a distinct class) cannot wash, recreate, or engage in any like physical activity.
Yet in further seeking to use Scripture to support his skewed view of marriage, Jerome next invokes Genesis 2 and 7, arguing,
"This too we must observe, at least if we would faithfully follow the Hebrew, that while Scripture on the first, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth days relates that, having finished the works of each, “God saw that it was good,” on the second day it omitted this altogether, leaving us to understand that two is not a good number because it destroys unity, and prefigures the marriage compact. Hence it was that all the animals which Noah took into the ark by pairs were unclean. Odd numbers denote cleanness. (Against Jovinianus, Book 1, Cps. 7,13,16,33; http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf206.vi.vi.I.html)
So much for sending out disciples by pairs, while having 3 -5 wives must be good.
Similarly, Augustine held a perverse view of marital relations, believing that Heb. 13:4 only means the marriage bed is not defiled if fornication and adultery or relations without the intent to procreate is avoided, and that marital intercourse could not be engaged in without sinful passions, though these were excused for Christians. In On Marriage and Concupiscence (Book I, cp. 27) he states,
Marriage is itself "honourable in all" Hebrews 13:4 the goods which properly appertain to it; but even when it has its "bed undefiled" (not only by fornication and adultery, which are damnable disgraces, but also by any of those excesses of cohabitation such as do not arise from any prevailing desire of children, but from an overbearing lust of pleasure, which are venial sins in man and wife), yet, whenever it comes to the actual process of generation, the very embrace which is lawful and honourable cannot be effected without the ardour of lust, so as to be able to accomplish that which appertains to the use of reason and not of lust....This is the carnal concupiscence, which, while it is no longer accounted sin in the regenerate, yet in no case happens to nature except from sin. — http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15071.htm
Now, this ardour, whether following or preceding the will, does somehow, by a power of its own, move the members which cannot be moved simply by the will, and in this manner it shows itself not to be the servant of a will which commands it, but rather to be the punishment of a will which disobeys it. It shows, moreover, that it must be excited, not by a free choice, but by a certain seductive stimulus, and that on this very account it produces shame. This is the carnal concupiscence, which, while it is no longer accounted sin in the regenerate, yet in no case happens to nature except from sin. It is the daughter of sin, as it were... http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf105.xvi.v.xxvii.html
Similarly, Tertullian argued that second marriage, having been freed from the first by death,
“will have to be termed no other than a species of fornication,” partly based on the reasoning that such involves desiring to marry a women out of sexual ardor. (An Exhortation to Chastity, Chapter IX.—Second Marriage a Species of Adultery, Marriage Itself Impugned, as Akin to Adultery; http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.iii.vi.ix.html)
The reasoning here would easily extend to any gratification of the flesh, from eating chocolate to scratching a itch, yet, again, Scripture does not teach that the marriage bed is unclean, nor (by extension) that anything that gratifies the flesh must be sinful (cf. Col. 2)
The imbalanced tradition on marriage versus celibacy led to the belief that clergy were to be single and practice continence even if married, or single or widowed ones could never marry, yet married pastors with children was evidently the norm in the NT church, (1Tim. 3:1-7) with the only known single pastors being two traveling apostles, and who yet had the power to marry. (1Cor. 9:5)
And yet, in all our discussions, you've never once responded to simple verses like:
Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Sorry Teppe, but you won't find your polytheism in the scripture.
Paul spent 3 years with Jesus Christ...
Just because it took three years for Paul to reveal what had happened to him on the road to Damascus doesn't mean he spent three years living with Christ and learning from him.
I think if any such thing had happened we would have 100’s of quotes of what post resurrection Jesus said to him during those three years (while all we have are the quotes from what was said to him on the road to Damascus, which wasn't much).
But not a single direct quotation of anything Jesus personally said to Paul after the encounter on the road during that three year period is written in the bible.
Which brings me back to my original argument, what makes Paul's God inspired revelations any different or important than the millions of other people who have had revelations from God over the ensuing 2000 years?
“Which brings me back to my original argument, what makes Paul’s God inspired revelations any different or important than the millions of other people who have had revelations from God over the ensuing 2000 years? “
Paul’s were backed with miracles and with the recognition by the People of God that Paul was an Apostle who spoke the words of God. The other millions...well, we don’t even know their names.
Believe who you want. The church of Christ recognized Paul’s letters as scripture almost as soon as they were written.
**Paul spent 3 years with Jesus Christ... **
Where is that in the Bible?
Where is that in the Bible?
That conclusively proves you don't read the bible...Apparently all you do is read the talking points your religion puts out...And they don't bother to mention that salient point in your catechism...
Where is it in the Bible that Jesus was with Paul for three years?
Jesus had ascended into heaven.
YOPIOS on your part.
What makes the Gospel writer's quotes of what Jesus said of any relevance??? You think they are telling the truth more than Paul???
Peter never said the Gospels were scripture but he did say what Paul wrote was scripture...
But maybe then Peter didn't really exist...
Paul is first mentioned in the bible in the book of Acts.
Christ had already ascended into heaven and had sent the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
Paul/Saul did not walk with Jesus.
Exactly! Well said!
Paul/Saul did not walk with Jesus.
I really don't mean to sound disrespectful but I can not believe your ignorance of scripture...Jesus spent 3 years personally being taught by and in the presence of the RISEN LORD, Jesus Christ...
The fact that no Bible verses are posted speaks volumes to me.
Why haven't any of the obviously God inspired writings (especially of protestants) of the greatest Christians of the last 2,000 years been added?
I’ll respond to them:
**Isa_43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.**
“My SERVANT whom I have CHOSEN..”
God was (and still is) IN Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
**Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.**
Sounds like the LORD of hosts is the REDEEMER of the LORD the king of Israel.......because:
“God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost”(which proceeds from the Father)”and with power....God was with him.....Him God raised up......ordained of God to be the Judge..”.
Jesus declared God the Father to be a Spirit (Jn 4:23,24), and that the Father dwells in him, and he in the Father (Jn 14). And that they are so inseparable that they are ‘one’(Jn 10:30). He declares the Father to be “the only true God” (Jn 17:1-3).
The Father dwells in EVERY cell of Christ’s body. How else could he walk right thru a wall?
The protestant affirmative about sola scriptura skips a beat when defining the Godhead, using unscriptural phrases such as “God the Son”, or “God the Holy Spirit”.
Since trinitarians believe the Son to be God, separate and distinct of God the Father, what parts of his body (apart from God the Father dwelling in him) are God.....the mind? the soul? the flesh?
One thing is for certain, if you say the ‘flesh’ is God (apart from the Father dwelling in him), then you are indeed consenting to Mary being the ‘mother of God’, for she had a part in producing what you affirm to be ‘God the flesh’.
bible quote:
Acts 1:3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
**Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, also recognizes the unique role of the apostles as the mouthpiece of Christ, “The Lord did nothing apart from the Father…neither on his own nor through the apostles.”**
Very true. Jesus Christ did EVERYTHING divine under the instruction and power of the Father (Spirit) in him. As the Christ, during his first visit, was the mouthpiece of God the Father, he passed that earthly power and authority to his apostles by the baptism of the Holy Ghost (which proceeds from the Father).
Everytime you log into an online world and create a character to play and interact with in that online world, you are both yourself and that character.
So it is with God and Christ.
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