Mormon Church’s human rights complaint rejected by European judges

Telegraph ^ | March 4, 2014 | Hayley Dixon

[Elsie]

I Elsieized her.

You evil, EVIL man!!!!

(Uh... is that anything like Bible Thumping?)

[Elsie]

//discriminating against good people because of their church rules is a terrible idea.//

Yeah; I just HATE it when behavior like this is revealed!!!

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Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

 

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

 

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

 

 

 

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

 

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

 

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

[Elsie]

I just HATE it when behavior like this is revealed!!!

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I'm sure the MORMONs reading through this thread have more up-to-date pronouncements from the Religious Organization; based in Salt Lake City; that repudiates all of the things quoted just above.

Right?

[Mr Rogers]

I understand it is about GB, but I don’t like to see FReepers poo-pooing religious freedom.

And your quote deliberately left out this part of my post: “As long as that rule does not endanger someone or violate an important law (don’t cut puppies throats on an altar, for example), it should be allowed.”

I guess honesty isn’t big in your church?

[Elsie]

First they restricted the rights of Mormons...

 

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

[Elsie]

The bottom line to me is this: If the government can deny freedom to worship God to the LDS, they can do it to Baptists or Catholics or any orthodox Christian church.

Are you PURPOSELY missing the point?

LDS, Inc. members can WORSHIP all they want; they just can't AVOID paying taxes on something!

[Elsie]

By its definition, the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem should have been taxed because only the High Priest entered there.

Oh?

Was it located in ENGLAND???

[Elsie]

Non-christians are asked to skip the Lord’s Supper in our church.

Not in mine.

We leave the 'worthiness' question up to the partaker: we have an OPEN communion (what a concept!)

[Elsie]

As long as that rule does not endanger someone or violate an important law (don’t cut puppies throats on an altar, for example), it should be allowed.

Evidently your church 'allows' dancing...

[Mr Rogers]

An LDS temple is undoubtedly a place of worship. It does not allow unlimited public access, but neither does my Baptist church, and neither did the Jewish Temple under King David.

The laws that protect Baptists from atheists only work when they are applied to Mormons as well.

I lived in Utah in the 70s. I’ve witnessed to many Mormons. I never did witness to them in hate, however.

[Elsie]

I fail to see why that is wrong, if a church decides to do so.

I get that.

No one said the 'church' could NOT do that!!!

This is a TAX question about property.

Our church has a house that our pastor used to live in.

We were not REQUIRED to pay property taxes on it when he lived there.

Now we rent it out; and we DO pay the appropriate tax.

[Elsie]

This is legal; both religiously and secularly.

[Mr Rogers]

“We leave the ‘worthiness’ question up to the partaker: we have an OPEN communion (what a concept!)”

Glad to hear you are morally superior to me. However, the Lord’s Supper is for believers, and it is not wrong for a church to judge members and others who want to worship with them:

“After all, it is none of my business to judge outsiders. God will judge them. But should you not judge the members of your own fellowship? As the scripture says, “Remove the evil person from your group.”

[Elsie]

Sounds like our church, too.

[Mr Rogers]

I was unaware the Mormon Church was renting its temples out as apartment houses. Was that in the article?

[Tennessee Nana]

A interview with Tom Phillips Fe 17, 2014

TOM: To answer – those seven charges, they’re intact. The wording may be a little bit slightly different to what I had originally put, and may not be —— certainly when that goes forward to the indictment stage some of that wording will be, I think, improved. Because some of that wording was not my original wording, and I don’t think it was tight as it should be. But anyway that will be better done at the indictment stage by trained prosecutors.

SCOTT: I’m glad you clarified that, because that was a question I had. So do you have any indication when the indictment stage will be and where does it go from here? I know there’s a hearing on March 14th.

TOM: March 14th, that’s right. Now let me just —[audio problems]— Steven Bloor and Christopher Ralph, two names appear on that — two summonses, individual names. Now that caught —— I was faced with a situation there, that I will admit to here, that was a —— during this process I’ve always maintained the victims of this crime are thousands of individuals in England and Wales and also the U.K. treasury, representing the British tax payer. They are the victims in this crime. And I was only seeking one summons to rectify that.

The district judge, again looking at the wider issue of fraud, wanted named individuals. At the time I was asked to provide one individual as an example of the thousands I was talking about. At that time I contacted Steven Bloor and Christopher Ralph to see if they would be willing to putting written submissions and if necessary to attend court under oath to represent those submissions. I gave them, so they had access to make these things, and my understanding was that was just to demonstrate to the district judge that there were people out there. It was never my intention that they would part of this case other than during trial such individuals could be called to confirm these things.

It then became a final point between us that the judge insisted on named individuals. Now I was then faced with the fact that OK I can go out and get hundreds or thousands of named individuals – that will take a little bit of time plus I will have to disclose what’s been going on here, because I can’t just ask people. Steven Bloor and Christopher Ralph I could trust to keep this all confidential. But if I suddenly wanted to have say a thousand victims, that’s going to get out and there’s no way I can contain that.

I also pointed out at the time that the law did not require named victims, and the Home Office which is maybe like your Justice Department but gives guidance on these things to the judiciary has actually commented on this Fraud Act 2006 and they have said quite explicitly that there doesn’t even have to be one victim, because the offenses that are alleged only require that the person making the false representations INTENDED, dishonestly intended —— dishonestly made the statements and secondly they INTENDED to make a financial gain for themselves or for someone else, or to cause a loss to someone else, or to cause an exposure to the risk of loss to someone else.

So even if someone had made false representations in England and Wales and there wasn’t one victim because no one fell for the con, if you like or whatever was being represented, they would still be guilty of a criminal act under this legislation. So I maintain to this day we don’t have to name any victims in these summonses or in this indictment.

Now I argued that -— let me finish on that -— I was then faced with the consequence of either accept the summons as they are or to appeal that decision of the district judge, which I was quite entitled to do and take that to the high court for them to decide on the law, but that would involve meaning another four months delay. I chose the option of let’s get it on with process now and then we’ll look at that kind of thing as it moves forward and into the indictment stage.

So to answer your question about March the 14th that’s a date now, that’s not something that would be rescheduled. I mean there would have to be some serious reasons for rescheduling that whether it was ill health or whatever. And that would be an application to the court. This is on the listing for the 14th.

Regarding the seriousness of the summonses people are saying, and again I wish Mr. Monson would actually take proper legal advice and listen to that, instead of getting the church PR machine. I’ve seen an email from Michael Purdy to the PR people in the church which basically says, “Kill this story at all costs. Kill this story at all costs.”

Now I would think that anyone that’s faced with a summons, especially in consideration of the twelfth Article of Faith, would actually take proper legal advice and find out, if at all, they might be guilty of such a thing. And if they are, address it seriously, not just dismissively say, “There is nothing here, these are bizarre allegations and we’re not even – Mr. Monson will not even attend.”

Now let me get that quite clear to him if he does not attend, just read the bottom of the summons if he’s got that far. If he does not attend then an arrest warrant will be applied for and issued for him.

[Tennessee Nana]

Regarding the seriousness of the summonses people are saying, and again I wish Mr. Monson would actually take proper legal advice and listen to that, instead of getting the church PR machine. I’ve seen an email from Michael Purdy to the PR people in the church which basically says, “Kill this story at all costs. Kill this story at all costs.”

[Elsie]

I understand it is about GB, but I don’t like to see FReepers poo-pooing religious freedom.

I don't like folks trying to impose OUR laws on other countries.

We have enough problems trying to follow our OWN!

[Elsie]

And your quote deliberately left out this part of my post:

That's ok; for balance; I used that line and left the OTHERS out!

;^)

[Scoutmaster]

Do the Masons pay this tax on their temples?

The Freemasons aren't considered a charity in the U.K., despite their philanthropic work, because only 25-30% of their charity goes to non-Masonic causes.