Pope Francis: accompany, don't condemn, those who have experience failure in marriage

http://en.radiovaticana.va ^ | February 28, 2014

[Mrs. Don-o]

"With reference to the issue of giving communion to persons in a second union (because those who are divorced can receive communion, there is no problem, but when they are in a second union, they can’t…), I believe that we need to look at this within the larger context of the entire pastoral care of marriage. And so it is a problem….

And so, two things: first, one of the themes to be examined with the eight members of the Council of Cardinals with whom I will meet on 1-3 October is how to move forward in the pastoral care of marriage, and this problem will come up there.

And a second thing: two weeks ago the Secretary of the Synod of Bishops met with me about the theme of the next Synod. It was an anthropological theme, but talking it over, going back and forth, we saw this anthropological theme: how does the faith help with one’s personal life-project, but in the family, and so pointing towards the pastoral care of marriage.

There's nothing there that says, "We are going to allow divorce and remarriage" or "We pushing for Holy Communion for adulterers." Are you seriously seeing words that are not on the page?

You are extrapolating things he did not say.

Show me one declarative sentence where he says this, and I will eat crow and send you the pictures.

And finally, I am warning about behavior, not judging persons. Show me where I judged YOU, rather than referring to behavior in general.

[ebb tide]

Wow!. You really did you switch horses in midstream. Instead of addressing the Pope’s words in Post 35, you dig up something else and accuse me of extrapolating what the Pope actually said in Post 35. That’s a real stretch.

By the way, if you were warning about behavior, you were addressing me only. However, FYI, I consider a warning from you as seriously as I consider a warning from Abe Foxman.

[ebb tide]

My apologies. I see you merely excerpted selected sentences from Post 35.

Parsing doesn’t do it justice, especially what has transpired since. Look up Kasper’s historical position on Holy Communion for adulterers and then tell me why Francis chose him to be the sole speaker on the very topic.

[ebb tide]

Are you seriously seeing words that are not on the page?

What part of this "page" did you choose to ignore?

With reference to the issue of giving communion to persons in a second union (because those who are divorced can receive communion, there is no problem, but when they are in a second union, they can’t…), I believe that we need to look at this within the larger context of the entire pastoral care of marriage. And so it is a problem. But also – a parenthesis – the Orthodox have a different practice. They follow the theology of what they call oikonomia, and they give a second chance, they allow it. But I believe that this problem – and here I close the parenthesis – must be studied within the context of the pastoral care of marriage.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I accept your apologies on the excerpted quotes.

By the way, if you were warning about behavior, you were addressing me only.

I assure you that I was not. I was very conscious, very careful not to do that, by making my remarks about behavior in general. If you want to jump to your feet and object, "Hey! I resemble that remark!" --- that's your business.

I am disappointed that this exchange has devolved into one-upsmanship.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Pope Francis made an explicitly parenthetical and plainly true statement about the Orthodox practice of oikonomia. Was he talking about the Catholic Church? (No.) Is he saying a falsehood about the Orthodox? (No.) Has he said the Orthodox are our role model? (No.) Is the only offensive thing here the rash jumping to conclusions about what the Pope didn't say? (Yes.)

When people do this, it makes them look... well... jumpy. It is not an effective way to one's one's point.

BTW, I'd be interested in your comments on this:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3128396/posts?page=28#28 Tagline from Pope Benedict XVI.

[ebb tide]

I assure you that I was not. I was very conscious, very careful not to do that, by making my remarks about behavior in general.

How would you take these statements from the same post of yours? Personally judgmental, perhaps?

Ebb, for God's sake, be careful!

It shocks me how effective the Adversary has been in turning good Catholics into some horrid chimera of prosecutor-judges --- yes, unjust judges, who accept the concoctions of perjurers and fools, extrapolate from tenuous evidence, demand worst-case interpretations of vague and ambiguous testimony, and render their judgment without proof.

You've accused me of extrapolating in several posts, merely for quoting the Pope.

[Mrs. Don-o]

This is getting ridiculous. You just did it again! Viz: "You've accused me of extrapolating in several posts, merely for quoting the Pope."

No, not for merely quoting a Pope. For quoting a Pope and then attaching a meaning --your meaning --- which goes significantly beyond the actual words of the text. That is what is meant by "extrapolation."

"Ebb, be careful!" is not an insult. Did I not just say that I was concerned about "good Catholics" becoming prosecutor-judges? Are you a good Catholic? Am I a good Catholic? Am I concerned? You bet I am.

This is not The Prosecution of Ebb. This is our mutual concern, since everyone needs brothers and sisters in Christ to be honestly striving for each others' well-being and redemption.

No eisegesis. God bless you. Good night.

[ebb tide]

No, not for merely quoting a Pope. For quoting a Pope and then attaching a meaning --your meaning --- which goes significantly beyond the actual words of the text.

Before you go to bed: care to give an example of the above rather than just an accusation?

If not, good night and Dominus tecum.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Good morning, Ebb!

"...a pope who tells an atheist he go to Heaven as long as he does what he feels is "good"; and everybody has their own idea of "good"?... a pope who tells Mr. Don-o that he can dump you, remarry in a civil court and still receive Holy Communion? "

A meaning --your meaning --- which goes significantly beyond the actual words of the text.

[ebb tide]

What about it? Do me a favor and review our posts and tell me who picked this fight.

I told another poster, “It’s hard to support this pope, in all things, without disobeying previous popes.”

You came out of nowhere and posted this, “Ebb, are you saying Pope Francis is guilty of formal heresy?”

So who started the extrapolating, Mam??

[Mrs. Don-o]

Yes! Thanks for digging that out. It shows that I did not condemn you or pick a fight with you. Nor even describe you as "extrapolating".

Nor did I, myself, extrapolate, because I didn't even posit a declarative sentence. I asked a question.

And still, a zillion words later, have not gotten an answer!

[ebb tide]

How would you like it if I asked,

“Have you stopped cheating on Mr. Don-o”?

Give it a rest, please.

[ebb tide]

And still, a zillion words later, have not gotten an answer!

Do I owe you an answer? No!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Honestly. It was a question. I was not trying to pin you; I did not put you in a position where a meaningful response was impossible; I was looking for an answer.

Ebb: "Do I owe you an answer? No!"

This has indeed been most wearying. So I'll agree with you on this: Give it a rest.

[ebb tide]

Thanks. Now I’ll answer: I believer Pope Francis, Cardinal Kasper, Cardinal Marx, Cardinal Maradiaga, Cardinal Mahoney, Cardinal O’Malley, Cardianl Wuerl, and many others, are all material heretics.

I do not yet believe Pope Francis is a formal heretic (as you asked me).

However, come October, I may have a different answer.

Pax

[IrishBrigade]

Can you support a pope who tells Mr. Don-o that he can dump you, remarry in a civil court and still receive Holy Communion?

...my my...you certainly are concerned with who receives Holy Communion aren’t you...

...but then, I guess I can see how the world could come to a crashing halt if a divorcee is not denied the Eucharist...