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1 posted on 02/09/2014 2:09:50 PM PST by NYer

To: Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; ...

In 95 A.D., a three-man embassy with a letter from the fourth bishop of Rome ...

That would be, Pope Clement I 92-99

2 posted on 02/09/2014 2:11:02 PM PST by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)

3 posted on 02/09/2014 2:14:53 PM PST by Berlin_Freeper

“How does one lightly utter the names of Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, and the Didache? Or mention Irenaeus, Chrysostom, Augustine, and other early witnesses to the fact that the Church in the first centuries was Roman Catholic?”

There was no Roman Catholic church as we would understand it today in those days. Nor are the doctrines of all these people (except for the Didache, which isn’t a person) actually Roman Catholic, as they hold them today. Using words like “Catholic” or “universal” or anything else doesn’t prove Romanism. The Eastern Orthodox make the same exact claims, and even believe that THEY are the one true Apostolic church of God on Earth. But all these people are in delusions, because, actually, none of their doctrines are hsitoricaly, but are merely the product of development, often times contradicting what came before them.

For example:

Cyril of Jerusalem on Sola Scriptura:

Not even his own teachings, he teaches, if it cannot be shown out of the holy scriptures, should be accepted:

“Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. Lecture 4, Ch. 17)

Tradition is the whole knowledge of godliness contained both in the Old and New Testament, not that which is invented by man, transmitted by word of mouth to the illiterate:

“But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep that only, which is now delivered to you by the Church, and which has been built up strongly out of all the Scriptures. For since all cannot read the Scriptures, some being hindered as to the knowledge of them by want of learning, and others by a want of leisure, in order that the soul may not perish from ignorance, we comprise the whole doctrine of the Faith in a few lines. This summary I wish you both to commit to memory when I recite it, and to rehearse it with all diligence among yourselves, not writing it out on paper, but engraving it by the memory upon your heart , taking care while you rehearse it that no Catechumen chance to overhear the things which have been delivered to you. I wish you also to keep this as a provision through the whole course of your life, and beside this to receive no other, neither if we ourselves should change and contradict our present teaching, nor if an adverse angel, transformed into an angel of light 2 Corinthians 11:14 should wish to lead you astray. For though we or an angel from heaven preach to you any other gospel than that you have received, let him be to you anathema. Galatians 1:8-9 So for the present listen while I simply say the Creed, and commit it to memory; but at the proper season expect the confirmation out of Holy Scripture of each part of the contents. For the articles of the Faith were not composed as seemed good to men; but the most important points collected out of all the Scripture make up one complete teaching of the Faith. And just as the mustard seed in one small grain contains many branches, so also this Faith has embraced in few words all the knowledge of godliness in the Old and New Testaments. Take heed then, brethren, and hold fast the traditions which you now receive, and write them on the table of your heart.” (Ibid, Lecture 5, Ch. 12)

Augustine on irresistible grace, final perseverance, limited atonement, and whatever else I missed which he touches on here:

“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)

“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)

“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)

“But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, “If ye were of the world, the world would love its own,” He immediately added, “But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for “there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace,” he adds, “then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”” (Tractates on the Gospel of John, 15:17-19)

John Chrysostom on Sola Fide

“By what law? Of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the law of faith? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.” (Homily 7 on Romans III)

“For this is [the righteousness] of God when we are justified not by works, (in which case it were necessary that not a spot even should be found,) but by grace, in which case all sin is done away. And this at the same time that it suffers us not to be lifted up, (seeing the whole is the free gift of God,) teaches us also the greatness of that which is given. For that which was before was a righteousness of the Law and of works, but this is the righteousness of God.” (John Chrysostom, Homily 11 on Second Corinthians, 2 Cor 5:21)

Theodoret, Bishop of Syria, on the same:

“The salvation of man depends upon the divine philanthropy alone. For we do not gather it as the wages of our righteousness, but it is the gift of the divine goodness.” (On the 3rd chap, of Zephaniah.)

Clemens Romanus, on the same:

“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Romans 9:5 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven. All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (Letter to the Corinthians)

Ignatius on predestination and final perseverence:

“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Ephesians, Ch. 0)

“Seeing, then, all things have an end, these two things are simultaneously set before us— death and life; and every one shall go unto his own place. For as there are two kinds of coins, the one of God, the other of the world, and each of these has its special character stamped upon it, [so is it also here.] The unbelieving are of this world; but the believing have, in love, the character of God the Father by Jesus Christ, by whom, if we are not in readiness to die into His passion, His life is not in us.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, Ch. 5)

“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans. Ch. 0)

“I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that you also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Ch. 4)

“Flee, therefore, those evil offshoots [of Satan], which produce death-bearing fruit, whereof if any one tastes, he instantly dies. For these men are not the planting of the Father. For if they were, they would appear as branches of the cross, and their fruit would be incorruptible.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, Ch. 11)

By the way, about that stupid comment about Ignatius supposedly having a “different tone” in his writing in his epistle to the Romans. This is the same Ignatius who told Polycarp that the head of the Bishop is God (what about the Pope!?) who also wrote by name to every Bishop of every church he wrote to, yet did not write to any Bishop in Rome. The Papists have to go and read their idolatry into a letter, since they literally fail if we take the time to read his direct words.

5 posted on 02/09/2014 2:33:33 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)

“Lately, I have been hearing a lot about how the primitive Church was not Roman Catholic.”

6 posted on 02/09/2014 2:34:17 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion

While the bishop of Rome is the authority here; he was not yet representing a ‘world wide unified’ universal Christian church under the leadership of the bishop of Rome Catholic church. That entity was created by the Roman Empire emperors Constantine (cirra 324)and Theodosius who declared Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire. It was Theodosius who issued the Edict of 380 that established the state church of the Roman Empire aka, the Roman Catholic Church.

7 posted on 02/09/2014 2:39:01 PM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)

8 posted on 02/09/2014 2:43:13 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)

Yes-—Truth and Knowledge is so much fun!!! Even at parties!

I find that the Dialectic Materialism which has taken over the world-—is one to deceive and promote irrational concepts (especially to children, on purpose) and then our Prussian system of “education” is to really condition/brainwash everyone to accept whatever any authority figure states as “Truth” and to inculcate “group think” (whatever pop culture is promoting controlled by the elite).

Now....we use to be educated in the Classics-—where Good and Evil were made clear, never fuzzy as children so we had a solid foundation of “belief”. The Socratic Method and debate had the truth floating to the top and was obvious when explained well.

Now we have PC and silencing of ideas in the schools -—and actually the demeaning of anything Christian or Reasoned-—in both the school and media.

So people are ignorant of Truth/God. “Without God, everything is permissible”. (Dostoevsky). And I will add-—everything is believed.

We have the systematic erasing of Truth going on now. Only lies/twisted truth is allowed in schools and in the public square.

10 posted on 02/09/2014 3:00:28 PM PST by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)

Lately, I have been hearing a lot about how the primitive Church was not Roman Catholic….What these documents reveal is a primitive church that is recognizably hierarchical and centered on the Eucharist.

The early church fathers taught a lot more than this that is ignored and a lot less then the Catholic Church teaches today. It is safe to say the early catholic church was not the Roman Catholic church.

14 posted on 02/09/2014 6:06:35 PM PST by HarleyD ("... letters are weighty, but his .. presence is weak, and his speech of no account.")

In 95 A.D., a three-man embassy with a letter from the fourth bishop of Rome arrived at Corinth, where there were dissensions in the local church. In that letter, Pope St. Clement speaks with authority, giving instructions with a tone of voice that expects to be obeyed. The interesting point is that the apostle John was still living in Ephesus, which is closer than Rome to Corinth. But it was the bishop of Rome (at the time, a smaller diocese) who dealt with the problem.

A perversion of history and a perversion of the bible...In other words, this is a lie...

Rev 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

John was not any where near Ephesus...John was living off the coast of Turkey on an island...Why would the author lie about that???

John was being instructed on the future of the creation by God and you want us to believe there was some other human who was not even an apostle in charge of John??? Ludicrous...

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

So Rome is at the top of the list, right??? What??? Rome isn't even on the list...How do you guys figure that God neglected to mention his holy see??? I know why he didn't mention it to the last living apostle...

Then there are the seven letters of St. Ignatius, who was martyred in Rome in 106. Ignatius was the third bishop of Antioch (Peter had been the first) and a disciple of the apostle John. Because these letters, written en route to Rome, are so Catholic, their authenticity was long contested by Protestant scholars, but now they are almost universally accepted as genuine.

Ignatius was not a disciple of John any more that I was a disciple of Paul...Another lie...

The next lie is that the forged letters of Ignatius are now widely accepted...That ridiculous...

Ignatius was the first to call the Church "Catholic." He writes to the Ephesians that "the bishops who have been appointed throughout the world are the will of Jesus Christ…. Let us be careful, then, if we would be submissive to God, not to oppose the bishop." And his letter to the church at Smyrna attacks those who deny the Real Presence: "They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of Our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins…."

The forged letters claim the church was catholic, NOT Catholic...Another lie...

The two (or 3) sets of those letter contain one set that has no reference to Catholic traditions such as the Eucharist...Another set does...It doesn't take a genius to figure out which ones were forged...

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles...Peter was to the Jews...

Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:

This puts to rest the false notion that Peter had authority above any one else...Peter was instructed by the other apostles to go to Samaria...Peter's preeminence is a myth put out by the Catholic religion...

22 posted on 02/09/2014 7:40:42 PM PST by Iscool (Ya mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailer park...)

From the First Apology of St. Justin Martyr from between A.D. 147 and 161:

And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.

All the protestations of the Protestants notwithstanding, this is clearly Catholic.

28 posted on 02/09/2014 8:35:46 PM PST by Petrosius

Considering some of the books he’s written, George Sim Johnston evidently believes the early church was evolutionist.

54 posted on 02/10/2014 7:50:58 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (The Left: speaking power to truth since Shevirat HaKelim.)

I don’t know why it is, but this information keeps bursting upon me in the most unlikely settings — a lunch party near the sand dunes, cocktails on the upper east side — where a kindly soul informs me between sips of Dubonnet that the Catholic Church really began as an episcopal conspiracy centuries after Christ.
My interlocutor has usually been reading a book by Garry Wills or Elaine Pagels, who view the events of sacred history as power plays by vested interests. If my weekend controversialist hasn’t been reading a heterodox best-seller, he or she has been taking one of those smartly put-together adult Bible classes in Manhattan, which let it be known that the Real Presence and the Sacrifice of the Mass, the papacy, and the episcopate are late Roman inventions.

How, over a glass of chardonnay, does one respond?

If your friends are the Bible-class types, gently but firmly correct them.

If your friends are the type who read Garry Wills and Elaine Pagels, spit-take and then laugh.

103 posted on 02/11/2014 5:12:09 PM PST by RichInOC (2013-14 Tiber Swim Team)

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