Posted on 01/31/2014 2:06:06 PM PST by James R. Aist
Several years ago I heard someone make the statement that "To help someone accept Christ, just show them that they already use faith in their everyday life, and explain to them that all they have to do is use the same faith to believe in Jesus." Well, I didn't know why at first, but that statement just didn't seem to ring true, especially in light of what the Bible actually says about faith. So, I began to search it out more carefully, and that's how I came to realize that there are actually two kinds of faith, and that they are really very different.
(Excerpt) Read more at ipost.christianpost.com ...
I don’t see how putting a car key into the ignition and expecting the car to start could in any way be described as “faith”.
Thank you for writing this. As an unbeliever I get this argument all the time that “you have faith in science” and it is incredibly frustrating and also insults my intelligence. It is dishonest to equate trust in science or that the sun will rise tomorrow with faith as it is defined in the bible. The two are not synonymous. If I might give some advice to those attempting to convert people, don’t use this argument.
Exactly, and you’re welcome.
You’ve never owned a Ford, have you?
The problem here is: if the unbeliever says to the believer you must distinguish between natural faith and supernatural faith, the unbeliever is admitting the existence of supernatural faith and thus of the supernatural.
I have had situations in which that certainly was an act of faith! But in which case it was more hope than what Biblical faith is often shown to be, because the chances were just as good that it would not start. Like after i had completely sunk my father's car, or with a cold battery that was nigh unto death.
But contrary to the absurd atheistic definition of faith as only being that which is belief that is held with lack of, in spite of or against reason or evidence, in Scripture it can refer to belief based upon a degree of evidential warrant. And belief that a car will start today in cold weather has far more warrant than in earlier days.
Israel was not called to follow Moses because he simply promised hope and change and had a good speaking voice and had done some shepherding, but God gave abundant supernatural attestation of him before Moses lead them out, and even more before He called them into covenant.
Other examples abound, esp. in the ministry of Christ. The degree of evidential warrant is not always the same, but as in marriage, one makes a step of faith based upon varying degrees of warrant.
Even in the often-invoked case of Thomas who was told.
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed, (John 20:29)
those who believed without physically seeing Christ after that had the testimony of radically changed changes, with heart and life effect which correspond to promises of Christ, contingent upon faith-obedience, and which effects testify to a supernatural cause.
Yet Scripture does not condemn what might be seen as blind faith, that of lacking any empirical evidence, as in the Lord calling Matthew to follow Him (of course, to utterly reject subjective impressions as possibly having warrant is not being objective), but what it teaches is that such faith will result in evidence. And so it does, as well as growing as one's faith in tested.
American biblical scholar Archibald Thomas Robertson stated that the Greek word pistis used for faith in the New Testament (over two hundred forty times), and rendered "assurance" in Acts 17:31 (KJV), is "an old verb to furnish, used regularly by Demosthenes for bringing forward evidence."[20] Likewise Tom Price (Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics) affirms that when the New Testament talks about faith positively it only uses words derived from the Greek root [pistis] which means "to be persuaded."[21]
British Christian apologist John Lennox argues that "faith conceived as belief that lacks warrant is very different from faith conceived as belief that has warrant." And that, "the use of the adjective 'blind' to describe 'faith' indicates that faith is not necessarily, or always, or indeed normally, blind." "The validity, or warrant, of faith or belief depends on the strength of the evidence on which the belief is based." "We all know how to distinguish between blind faith and evidence-based faith. We are well aware that faith is only justified if there is evidence to back it up." "Evidence-based faith is the normal concept on which we base our everyday lives."[25]
Alvin Plantinga upholds that faith may be the result of evidence testifying to the reliability of the source of truth claims, but although it may involve this, he sees faith as being the result of hearing the truth of the gospel with the internal persuasion by the Holy Spirit moving and enabling him to believe. "Christian belief is produced in the believer by the internal instigation of the Holy Spirit, endorsing the teachings of Scripture, which is itself divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit. The result of the work of the Holy Spirit is faith."[26] -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_and_rationality#Evangelical_views
HEY! Fords are great. They DO rattle.
My mother had one of the first FASTBACKS. Was it ever fun to drive. My husband had a '65 Chevy Malibu Super-sport convertible, baby blue. THAT was FABULOUS to drive.
True story.
When I was working at a local high school with MANY Mexicans I HAD to take the Chevy to school for a few days. Our other cars weren't available.
I parked it SMACK DAB in front of the school so it wouldn't be stolen.
After the third day I came out of school and the little side window was open. There was a note on the dashboard INSIDE the car. Yikes.
It read: I like your car. Would like to buy it. Carlos.
WELL, Carlos was being a REAL nice guy and DIDN'T steal it. I parked it out there for THREE days. However, I wasn't going to push "Carlos" too far. I took our car home that day and KEPT it there.
THANK YOU, CARLOS, for NOT stealing our "charp chevy." :o)
No we are acknowledging the concept of faith in the supernatural. That is not the same thing as acknowledging the existence of the supernatural. There is such a thing as faith in the supernatural but we don’t consider it as a valid path to knowledge.
Fair enough. And for the record, the common understanding among Christians is that we don’t directly convert anyone, only the Holy Spirit does this. My interest here is in offering what I understand to be true.
But let’s be honest. The traditional, standard atheist position against faith defines it as belief without evidence, and this definition is in fact the one you’re protesting here.
In other words, it seems this is an attempt to add something completely new to atheist ideology. As far as I know. If this is in fact the case, it does have the appearance of moving the bar, and raises the question as to whether atheism is losing ground.
This is an erroneous conclusion drawn from Ephesians 2:8,9: "For by grace are ye save through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest nay man should boat."
The demonstrative pronoun "that" (neuter [touto]) does not have as it antecedent "faith" (feminine [pistis]). This would be an agreement error. "That" refers back to the verb phrase "By grace are ye saved [through faith]". Salvation is the gift. The contrast is between Salvation by grace and Salvation by works. The latter is only possible if one keeps the whole law and never sins. The former is available by grace through faith.
"He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12,13)
The gift is the "power to become sons of God", salvation.
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ out Lord." (Romands 6:23)
The gift is "eternal life", salvation.
"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:4,5)
The gift of salvation is given to us, when we believe on him. Through our faith is how God has chosen to gracefully impart salvation. Faith is not a work; it is trusting in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
FAITH
The acceptance of the word of another, trusting that one knows what the other is saying and is honest in telling the truth. The basic motive of all faith is the authority (or right to be believed) of someone who is speaking. This authority is an adequate knowledge of what he or she is talking about, and integrity in not wanting to deceive. It is called divine faith when the one believed is God, and human faith when the persons believed are human beings. (Etym. Latin fides, belief; habit of faith; object of faith.)
All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon's Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.
Spelling Corrections:
Ephesians 2:8,9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast.”
Faith in chemistry and faith in the inerrancy of Bronze Age religious texts share nothing in common, and we need new words to describe both cases.
Gary, Ping to one of your favorite subjects:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3117983/posts?page=7#7
Daniel, thanks! Great post.
I don’t know what you mean by “adding something completely new to atheist ideology”. I don’t even recognize such a thing as atheist ideology. Atheism is a position on a single question. I’m protesting the false equivocation of belief based on evidence and belief without evidence. I should probably say belief without sufficient evidence. That is more accurate. I applaud the author for pointing out this false equivocation which is so often used by religious believers to convince non believers. When someone says to me that I have “faith” in science so why not have faith in the bible they have given me good grounds not to consider anything else they have to say. That’s all I was saying. So if someone were trying to convince me then to start off with such a false equivocation would cause me to end the discussion.
Don’t you agree that equating faith with belief drops the crucial context of whether a belief is justified or not? If faith simply means belief why use the word faith at all? I think it is obvious that there is a great difference between a belief in the validity of science and belief in the supernatural.
Yeah, I don’t know whether those who equate the two are trying to lend credence to their irrational beliefs or to do away with the concept of justification altogether.
I had a Ford Probe, but Probes had a Mazda engine. It was reliable, but with plenty of interior rattle.
Ford - Found On Road Dead
Ford - Fix Or Repair Daily
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. (Hebrews 11:1)
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