Posted on 11/18/2013 3:07:47 PM PST by NYer
Yet when Catholics point out obvious Scriptural inconsistencies held by Protestants, we are told such things are "spiritually" (whatever that needs to mean) discerned, or similar rationalizations.
Such as?
“So am I right or not Puny? Why won’t you answer a simple question?’
It’s not a matter of “why won’t I,” I simply didn’t give a detailed response since you ignored the scripture and my post. If you will not engage it, what good is it to talk to you? And it’s not as if what you wrote is so profound that it hasn’t been seen and answered for over 2,000 years, whether it is Augutine answering it, or Paul, or Christ, or Calvin and Luther.
But to answer your question now, Adam’s sin killed us all, so that all those who have been brought forth from his loins have been spiritually dead from the womb, incapable of seeing, already blind, and dumb, and doomed. In this we could say that man is his own killer, and chose to blind himself, and all men from thenceforth, inheriting the evil nature of Adam, now sin willingly and truly according to their own desires, which are utterly depraved unless God cause them to be renewed:
“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)”
(Eph 2:1-5)
Before that, there is no one who seeks after God, or who can understand Him, because we are depraved:
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
(Rom 3:9-12)
But on the other hand, God not only permitted Adam’s fall, and the birth of every individual whom He would not save, but actively decreed it:
Pro 16:4 The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble
Not only that, but even after this initial condemnation and decree of reprobation, He still holds the right to blind anyone even more, and harden them, and cause them to do His will, according to His own purpose:
Pro 21:1 The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.
Exo 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
So on the one hand, man is responsible for His own sin; yet, God not only decreed their birth, but also, with His power, does not let them run free, but uses them for His own purpose, and raises them up accordingly. Whether that is to be hardened, like Pharaoh, or to be freed from shackles, as all the elect.
The reason why I called your post blasphemous is because you do not have a fear of God, but yet say these things freely without taking a moment to respond to the scripture. Why call God evil if God declares in Holy Writ, that “no man can come to me unless it is given to Him by my Father”?
Who are you to judge who God hardens and who He does not harden? I’ll give you the advice of two men, one greater than the other, but both our worthy Christians. The first, Paul:
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
(Rom 9:19-21)
And now Augustine, commenting from John 6:
“Murmur not among yourselves: no man can come unto me, except the Father that sent me draw him. Noble excellence of grace! No man comes unless drawn. There is whom He draws, and there is whom He draws not; why He draws one and draws not another, do not desire to judge, if you desire not to err.” (Augustine, Tractate 26)
” If your god blinded me, why do you think you can help me and other Catholics see? “
I cannot, as, obviously, no man can call Christ Lord but by the Holy Ghost (1 Co 12:3). Though, God works through the preaching of the Word, so that though a man isn’t converted through human reason, yet we who preach the Gospel move according to the will of God in How he reaches the elect:
Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
I'm getting there....
If "God's word" is synonymous with "the Bible," where is the Old Testament prophesy informing Simeon he would not see death before seeing the Messiah?
NO
Are you speaking of Christ’s first coming or the 2nd advent?
“If “God’s word” is synonymous with “the Bible,” where is the Old Testament prophesy informing Simeon he would not see death before seeing the Messiah?”
Presumably what you’re trying to argue is that Roman Catholic tradition is the word of God. If that’s the case, then the holy word of God/Tradition ends up pointing you back to scripture as our final authority to begin with:
Cyril of Jerusalem on Sola Scriptura:
“Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. Lecture 4, Ch. 17)
It’s a circle of doom for the Papists.
Thanks for the clarification, Greetings. Picking at nits and proudly. jeesh...:)
I refer to the events in Luke 2
Actually, I'm referring to the Protestant penchant for using extra-biblical traditions to claim all their interpretations are biblical.
Well, how about being a little less obtuse? WHat is it you’re groping for here?
“Actually, I’m referring to the Protestant penchant for using extra-biblical traditions to claim all their interpretations are biblical.”
IOW, extra biblical tradition supports Sola Scriptura, and not Sola Ecclesia as you need it to. I am okay with this exchange, though, I can skin your cat using just the scripture itself as well. But, it doesn’t matter, since you’re defeated already.
You can’t figure out the problem, but I’m the one that’s “obtuse?”
Typical.
If you have my argument already, you don’t need me then, do you?
“If you have my argument already, you don’t need me then, do you?”
If by “have” you mean, already popped its bubble, then, yes, you are no longer needed. But, I do like how Papists vainly try to change the goal posts once they lose.
Ahhhh, “typical”..the “Bachhhh” of arguments. The problem is your posts have nothing to do with the gospel of the grace of God, or studying God’s word of truth rightly divided to be a workman for Him. Or preaching the reconciliation between God and man based on Christ’s finished work. First of all, you’re in “time past” with Simeone, under the law, not grace, and following OT teachings. So what is there to gain from your great findings? Does it bring us one step closer to the present time, the “but now” of God’s word? Do you even know that there is a “but now” and we are living in it? And when it began and when it will end? Just like the “time past” ended at a specific time and for a specific purpose. How about moving a little closer to NOW, or explain in detail what you’re aiming at.
Allow me to remind you of proverbs 18:13.
What you see is not a “changing the goalpost” but a recognition of your inability to carry on a dispassionate, critical discussion.
That’s okay, you’re certainly not the first.
“Allow me to remind you of proverbs 18:13.”
Hey, so a Papist does know how to use the Bible! Keep it up and maybe you’ll rescue yourself from your crappy “arguments”.
Yet you did refer to me as “obtuse” despite your lack of comprehension.
Does that seem like ground to grow a productive discussion on to you?
Funny, I as a Protestant find myself taking communion each Sunday.
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