Can John MacArthur - Calvinist - differentiate b/w the never saved & the out of fellowship w/Christ?

11/4/2013 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

[Laissez-faire capitalist]

Can John F. MacArthur - or any other Calvinist - please differentiate between (or what constitutes the difference between) those who were truly never saved, and those who are saved, but are now living "out of fellowship" with Christ?

I have read in the MacArthur Bible where he seems to boil it down to... by their fruits shall ye know them.

But how much bad fruit or lack of good fruit does one have to show to give evidence that they were never saved, or that they are still saved, but have merely fallen out of fellowship with Christ?

Example: A young man goes down to the altar, several hear him accept Christ into his life. A few years later he goes off to Bible college and graduates, accepts a youth pastor position, and then a few years later falls into sin, deep sin, whatever.

Half the church where he was the youth pastor says that he was never saved to begin with, and that he somehow duped them. The other half says that he is still saved, but has fallen into - yes - deep sin, but nonetheless is just "fallen out of fellowship" with Christ.

Which half of the church can prove with absolute accuracy that they are the half that is correct?

are there some cases where Jesus said "let them [the tares and the wheat" grow up together and at ther end of the age the Lord will reveal who was and wasn't saved.

Problem is, could this all apply to your/any pastor - even to John F. MacArthur himself?

[Laissez-faire capitalist]

How do you know that your “assurance” is truly real? Can one’s own heart deceive them?

[MNDude]

“Would that teacher, in your opinion, say that what he said could be applied to any pastor/preacher, even himself - even MacArthur?”

I would say that he’d answer publicly that he doesn’t know for sure if himself or McArther are going to heaven(although he’d have a pretty darn good hunch he was going to heaven for being such a wonderful man).

Calvinism kind of strips out the importance of belief and acceptance of Christ. If God wanted you to go to hell, when he created you, he’s going to make damn sure.

[Laissez-faire capitalist]

So one can know for themself, but not if the preacher in the pulpit is truly saved?

But What John wrote only applied to those who truly believed. Who didn’t believe, but thought they did?

[redleghunter]

If you persevere to the end, then you were saved.

Yes that is in several places in the NT especially Revelation chapters 1-3. The blog that started this thread concerns me, because it seems this is not a hypothetical question but something witnessed. MacArthur gave an interview on his book "The Gospel according to Jesus Christ" where he gave some personal encounters of people who professed to be Christian and then later became atheists or boastful repeating sinners. Some went to college and seminary with him.

But I digress. If we fail to know that God is Sovereign in Salvation, then these matters will continuously bug some. There is always the point of properly defining words. Repent means to turn away from our sins. Faithfulness is congruent to faith. What I would be interested in finding out is if the example of the youth pastor has an ending story. Does he ever come back? IMO if he is saved, he will come back and confess and repent and rejoin fellowship. If he doesn't IMO, he never knew Christ.

[Nervous Tick]

>> Calvinistic and Armenian doctrines are very important to study and inquire into

They are! I’d suggest beginning your study and inquiry by learning the proper spelling of “Arminian”. :-)

(Just yanking your halo. I’ve done it too. Ask xzins)

[redleghunter]

What’s your point? Are you troubled over a friend and should we offer our prayers for them? If so PM me and we can get a prayer request thread going.

[Nervous Tick]

>> So one can know for themself

Yes

>> but not if the preacher in the pulpit is truly saved?

No. WAAAAAY above my pay grade to “know” if ANYone other than me is saved. I can hold opinions though, and those opinions, open to the guidance of the Spirit, can guide my interactions with others.

Check out Romans 10 (in part here, emphasis of course is mine):

Romans 10:5-11 (ESV)
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.

>>>>>>
6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down)
7 or “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
<<<<<<<

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

>>>>>> 10 For with the heart one believes <<<<<<

and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.”

[redleghunter]

Got to post #12 and not one Bible passage or verse is presented. Perhaps you should start there and the rest will follow since you started this thread. Let’s start with your opinion on whether the young youth pastor is saved or never was in the first place. Then present the Scriptures defending your position.

[redleghunter]

Then again, this thread torpedoes a major Calvinistic belief.

I am not a Calvinist, but will make note that you or no one here has "torpedoed" Calvinism. Who really cares? Present your argument from the Bible and I am sure many will respond.

[redleghunter]

By whose power have you been saved? Is it by the power of your own temporal decision or actions or works, or by the power and grace of God alone?

Boom, there it is. Good post.

[Lee N. Field]

Then again, this thread torpedoes a major Calvinistic belief. There is no way that they can truly differentiate b/w the never saved and those who are still saved, just “merely out of fellowship.”

We don't have to.

[redleghunter]

Calvinism kind of strips out the importance of belief and acceptance of Christ.

Not for those who have Christ abide in them and them abide in Him. Tricky proposal huh? But we do know from the Words of Christ that He chooses us:

John 15:

16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and your fruit should remain, in order that whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. 17 These things I command you: that you love one another.

[redleghunter]

How do you know that your “assurance” is truly real? Can one’s own heart deceive them?

Your questions seem to have a Genesis 3 and Matthew 4 tone to them. Both very bad examples.

[ravenwolf]

“We can’t. We won’t know for sure until we’re in heaven.”

---

I don,t know if he is absolutely right or not but i respect that attitude more than the ones out there telling the world they are saved when the evidence shows some of them are nothing but charlatans.

[.45 Long Colt]

Absolutely. You don’t look within, you look to Christ!

[Alex Murphy]

Can the Armenian differentiate b/w the backslid and those who are aren't backslid, just backSLIDING - but nonetheless still saved?

Born in an Armenian Body, John Knew Early That He Was a Calvinist

[Nervous Tick]

>> Your questions seem to have a Genesis 3 and Matthew 4 tone to them.

Ouch! That was harsh, brother. I don’t think I’d go *that* far.

CAN one’s own heart deceive them? That’s an honest question. One’s heart can certainly be “turned” by the LORD He hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and “The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will” (prov. 21:1). Can Diabolos (the Twister) turn a man’s heart?

[MNDude]

You’re taking this scripture waaay out of context. Christ was speaking to the disciples he just chose. Not regarding the salvation of the human race.

Ever heard of John 3:16 before?

[Nervous Tick]

I like the unpacking of 2 Chronicles 7:14 found on your homepage. I hope you don’t mind if I borrow it.

[Cvengr]

The answer is much easier than you think.