Skip to comments.Journey of grace - From lesbianism to the parking lot to church: An interview with author...
Posted on 06/27/2013 12:08:33 PM PDT by scripter
Rosaria Butterfield was a tenured professor at Syracuse University, until God used her desire to write a book on the religious right, and the friendship of a biblically orthodox pastor, to draw her to Christ. She became a voracious Bible reader, gradually saw that her new beliefs required her to upend her former life, and has now described what happened in The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. I interviewed her on Jan. 11 in front of students at Patrick Henry College. By Feb. 20 about 30,000 people had viewed the interview on YouTube. Here are edited excerpts.
Lets start with the very first sentence in this terrific book: When I was 28 years old, I boldly declared myself lesbian. Did you feel heroic in doing so? I felt I was simply telling the truth.
How did you get to that point? I was in graduate school and cared deeply about relationships. I even authored at least one article on the subject of morality and moral living. I was steeped in worldviews that buttressed a sense of equality and the high value of personal experience. I had wonderful relationships with many of my female colleaguesdeeper, resonating relationships. For me, coming out as a lesbian, was the same way I might come out as someone who loves her dog or feeds her cat in the morning. It was bold in that it provided an edge for me in the world, but I like edges. It didnt seem spectacular. It didnt seem very extraordinary. It just was.
At age 36 and well-established at Syracuse, you wrote a critique of the Promise Keepers movement in the local newspaper and received lots of letters. You had a tray for fan mail and a tray for hate mail, but you didnt know where to put a letter from a pastor, Ken Smith, because it wasnt nasty, just questioning. I couldnt dispose of this letter. I tried to, but at the end of the day I would fish it out of the recycling bin and put it back on my desk. It had some questions that no one had ever asked me in my life. At the end of the letter the pastor asked me, please, to give him a call. The title of the church was Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church, and I assumed reformed meant enlightened. An anthropologist colleague of mine said a meeting would be GOOD FOR YOUR RESEARCH! Call him back! So I did.
What were some of the questions no one had asked you? One had to do with the nature of the Bible as a library, not just a book, that it contained every genre I used to teach from. He asked questions about my well-being. He asked, do I believe in God, and if so, what do I think He thinks of all this? He wrote in such a gracious way, and I was intrigued by it.
You write that he invited you to dinner, and there was no air conditioning. Why was that a plus in your mind? I had presumed that evangelical Christians were people who felt entitled to a dominion over the earth that is hateful, violent, unhelpful, unkind. Air conditioning: not necessarily good for the ozone layer, and expensive. They had fans and served a vegetarian meal, which I appreciated because I felt at this point that the eating of meat was a violent activity and I didnt want to be a part of it. Their home and their culture didnt seem so different from mine. That put me at ease.
Was there prayer before the meal? Amazing prayer. I had heard lots of prayer before. I was the heathen who got to overhear the prayers of many people at gay pride marches and in front of Planned Parenthood. I was going to hold my breath and get through the prayer, and then I could have a chance to get to some of my research by talking with this family. But it wasnt like that at all: It was a very conversational prayer, a prayer that included asking God for forgiveness of sins, and in a very specific way. It wasnt a terribly lengthy prayer but it had some details in it that made me think about myself, like forgetting to bring a meal to someone. Basic everyday things, but he was noticing them, and they were big enough to ask a holy God to forgive him for.
You write that they didnt share the gospel and invite you to churchand it was important that they did not do those things. Absolutely: I trusted them because they did not do those things. I knew the script. But Ken and his wife Floy were not talking to me as if I simply were a blank slate: OK, here is someone who clearly needs the gospel, lets make sure we get to these points before we let her leave our house. They seemed more interested in having a long relationship with me.
You and they became friends? Genuine friends. When I wouldnt answer an email or didnt show up, or they hadnt heard from me in a month, Ken would come over, or Floy would drop off a loaf of bread. We had many things in commonFloy and I both love to bake bread, and we like the same literature, which was astounding. And because I was a researcher, I started to read the Bible.
What were you researching? I was working on a book on the religious right. I needed to read the book that had gotten all these well-meaning, good intentioned, but naïve and foolish, people off-track. And so I was doing that, was reading the Bible the way a glutton approaches a bag of Oreo cookies, and I needed some scholarly help.
You read big chunks? That is part of my training, but some powerful things happen when you read the Bible many, many times in a year, from Genesis to Revelation, and in multiple translations. I really encourage Christians to do that, and not to read the Bible as though youre reading your horoscope. I dont think its really meant to be read like that.
You read serious passages such as Romans 1:24-28, which may be the scariest part of Scripture to anyone suffering from sexual sin. How did that hit you? My friend Jay at that point was a transgendered womanbiologically male, but had taken enough female hormones to be whats called chemically castrated. Jay followed me to the kitchen, put her large hand on my hand, and said, Rosaria, something is changing you. This Bible reading is changing you, and you need to tell me what is going on with you, because I am worried, I am losing you. I sat down and had that panic feeling you have when youre not really sure if youre going to throw up. I said, Im reading the Bible, reading it a lot, and what if its true? We are in big trouble if its true. Jay sat down and said, I know its true. I was a Presbyterian minister for 15 years. I prayed and God did not heal me, but if you want I will pray for you, and I have some books for you to read.
Which books? The next day I had two boxes of books overflowing. One book was a copy of Calvins Institutes. In the margins in Jays handwriting, right by the exegesis of Romans 1, is a note. I still have it today: It says, Be careful, this is where you will fall. Romans 1 of course, tells us that God will give some over to their lusts.
It made you start thinking about ... I was thinking, do I want to be changed? No. I like my life, I like my girlfriend, I like my house thank you very much, I even like my wonderful career. I am standing in the rushing water of the world. I have my toe in another world because of all that Bible reading. What will happen if I put my foot in, if I put my whole body in? I started reading commentaries, and those from my friend Jay, whose handwriting was in the margins, were like a flag on those icy ponds that you see in Syracuse: It looks like ice, but if you walk on it, youll fall through, now or later.
You started not going to church but parking across from it? Isnt that terrible? I had my Starbucks coffee and my New York Times and maybe an article I was working on in my truck with the gay and lesbian bumper stickers on the back. I would park and watch these enormous families pour out of 15-person passenger vans. The kids just kept coming and coming and it was astounding.
When did you move from the parking lot into the church? I woke up one morning, emerged from a bed that I shared with a woman, got in my truck with my bumper stickers and my butch haircut, and showed up at the Reformed Presbyterian Church. What strikes me, looking back, is what this church had been doing: praying for me faithfully, faithfully. Ken was sharing with this church our friendship and our relationship, and the members were genuinely on their knees praying for me. Its easier to simply be disgusted by a person like me, than pray for me. I also brought friends like Jay to church, and Jay had probably the best bass voice thereso, thats an issue, right? The church went from being a cleaned-up homeschooling church to suddenly a church with ministry to a lot of broken people.
Uncomfortable? Really uncomfortable. A friend of mine from the church said, You are a bridge, and bridges get walked on. But I had a suicidal student and was unable to deal with this by myself, so my gay community and my church community would meet in the ICU. We would meet! Thered be prayer, thered be anti-prayer, and thered be, Do you need a cup of coffee?
You write, Conversion put me in a complicated and comprehensive chaos. What did the church at that point do to be hospitable to a person immersed in chaos? I had some really burning questions for people. I would go up to my homeschool mom friends, and say Look, I have to give up the girlfriend: What did you have to give up to be here? I heard amazing things that made me realize I did not have any more to give up than anyone else. I learned there were other people in my church who struggled with sexual sin, with lust, with faithlessness and they told me that! They took the risk of no longer looking all cleaned up to me.
A good question to ask: Christian, what did you have to give up to be here? You never know the journey people take to get to church, even the people who are very cleaned up. Even the people without the butch haircuts and without a T-shirt announcing, Hi, Im Rahab the harlot, how can you minister to me?
What finally helped you make a public decision both in terms of church, and then in terms of your 1999 lecture opening up the fall semester at Syracuse? When the Lord calls someone to obedience out of a life of sin, thats going to hurt a lot of people. It just is. A lot of people were hurt by my obedience. Im grateful that when I had this stirring I was not in a church that minimized it. I never heard anybody say, God has a perfect plan for your life. No, they said, Rosaria, count the costs, this is going to be brutal, this is going to be bloody. When I said Look at all these hurting people, nobody said, Serves them right, boy, are they a bunch of sinners. Instead, people in church rolled up their sleeves and said, OK, how can we help? How can we get to know your friends?
Christian, what did you have to give up to be here?I think that hits home for many.
The 65 minute youtube interview can be watched here:
Ping. What do you think?
Great question. If the answer is "nothing" you have some soul-searching to do.
it proves the studies that show friendship evangelism is by far the most effective way people come to Christ.
I think it is very beautiful and I will ping it in a bit.
(Good to “see” you!!!)
Zebra. Stripes. No way to change that.
Jesus Himself employed various means of evangelism.
That said, so-called “friendship evangelism” (building relationship with non-believers) is an excellent way to communicate the truth of Christ.
I don't see your point... if you're saying that she's a homo and will always be one, then are you not also saying that God cannot save from sin?
This is true.
“Zebra. Stripes. No way to change that.”
Very true my friend - short of meeting the man who knows everything about you:
Problem is many have the friendship part down pat. They just forget the evangelism.
I am reminded of a story I was told by someone who was involved with Alcoholics Anonymous for many years.
A new, younger woman was telling the group very passionately about how she "deserved" to be free of her addiction, God must make it so, we all "deserved" it, etc...
A longer-term member, who had once been a drug-user, gang-banger, did time in prison, etc... replied: "I pray God does not give me what I deserve!"
Which god? Mankind has invented thousands of them.
Also, a lot of people including me don't think lesbianism is a sin.
Some people can and do change. Look at the lives of Bernard Natanson, Carol Everett and Norma McCorvey. Bob
She has some interesting observations, on repentance and on sexual sin. Worth engaging.
“Which god? Mankind has invented thousands of them.”
The one mankind DIDN’T invent.
“Also, a lot of people including me don’t think lesbianism is a sin.”
Yeah well that would more or less follow not believing in God. In fact if you don’t believe in God there is no sin at all; rather things you personally think simply good or bad.
Sometimes I consider how quiet and orderly and peaceful my world would be if only there were no God...
Good to see you, too. I’m at Capitola beach just thinking about everything and trying to pull everything together. Thanks for pinging it out.
Have you ever heard about Charlene Cochran? She founded Venus Magazine for lesbians. She also left the lifestyle and now uses her magazine to reach out to lesbians who want to leave the lifestyle.
Just for the record, she is no longer employed by SU, unsurprisingly.
God is in the business of redeeming mankind and making us new creatures in Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:17-21 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
I don't have to look past myself. That's all the evidence I need of the power of God.
Anyone can change, or rather God can change anyone. It's not something we have the power to do ourselves.
Nothing and everything.
I didn't need to clean myself up to come to God. He met me where I was.
And it cost me everything because I have been crucified with Christ and died to self.
Just for the record, she is no longer employed by SU, unsurprisingly.
"This is my conversion in a nutshell: I lost everything but the dog."
Have you ever heard about Charlene Cochran?
I have. I just don't care.
Just because I don't care doesn't mean I don't understand.
You are so wrong.
What you’re saying - is that Jesus died for nothing.
The cross of Christ is a cleansing flood.
He can, and does change people.
He raises them from the dead brings them to life!!!
Fairy tales. Let me talk to one person that Jesus raised from being dead and I'll buy you a house.
Granted. Okay, there may be a way to change that, but I still don't care.
Freepmail wagglebee to subscribe or unsubscribe from the homosexual agenda or moral absolutes ping list.
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Zebras are born zebras and will remain zebras until the body falls to death. Human beings are not born homosexual and they can cahnge and many have and continue to do so. And to claim "you don't care" is false, since you are spending time commenting on the thread. It is possible to change - not just from "being" a homosexual, but from "being" a thief, liar, drug addict, alcoholic, adulterer, backstabber - or any kind of sinful behavior! Fact. True. No doubt about it.
Anyone wanting on/off any of my ping lists, freepmail ME, not wagglebee, as he has been away for a while.
If you really didn’t care, you would not have made one comment on the thread.
I don’t care about NASCAR, American Idol, Dancing with the Stars, football, etc - so I never click on those threads, read them, or comment! That’s what people do on FR to topics they don’t care about!
Indeed. The behavior of some appear inconsistent or simply lack common sense.
No, it’s not stupidity.
It’s all outline in their agenda from years ago. I will bump a thread in a bit with a summary from “After the Ball”, published in 1989, their plans to “Overhaul Straight America”.
This was consciously done, a lie, and they knew it is a lie. Just like the “10% are gay” lie - they knew it was a lie, and they pushed it to gain their objective.
The objective is to make those who practice sodomy a special “class” of people equivalent to blacks, or any other “minority” group, therefore under the protection of civil rights laws. That’s why that call those opposed to the normalization of homosexual acts “bigots”.
They keep promoting the lie that they are “born that way” although many admit they chose the “gay” life - to gain legal protection, status and to force everyone else to shut up.
And of course, now the out and out focus on children - “gay” children, “transgendered” children and so forth. This perversion and ruination of children is the freaking last straw. I don’t know what’s next, but IMHO there needs to be a massive pushback/shoveback from the rest of us. The only reason they’ve gained such power is that those who SHOULD have spoken the truth loud and clear didn’t. The few who did - Scott Lively, NARTH, Mass Resistence and a few more - were utterly demonized and had very little support from people and churches who SHOULD have supported them.
Silence and cowardice are the real reasons we’re at this low point.
Because I do not understand why anybody would care about it.
Grand Rapids Public Library?
God bless you, Metmom, This lovely young woman in my church who is leading Vacation Bible classes now was on the skids in life until she read Lee Strobel’s series of books, esp. Case for a Creator, and repented. God can heal, if we give Him a chance. Hugs, Bob
Great Reformed Ping List.
That’s a rather myopic worldview. I’m really glad different people care for different things and I’m really glad there are many others willing to help those with unwanted same-sex attractions.
Bumped “After the Ball” thread - has a summary from the book, how they planned to “Overhaul Straight America”.
lj, it was a rhetorical statement... I (we) know they have been working on taking control for over half a century... well, they have almost succeeded... :/
Our only hope now, is to get the public to see/understand what has happened (I guess it its too much to hope they see the BIG/WHOLE picture :/)..
It is def not enough that we on FreeRepublic know and understand what is taking place... and I am in NO position to ask others how or what to do since I am overseas and can’t physically make a physical protest :/
Speaking as someone who went to school within walking distance of the main Grand Rapids Public Library building in downtown Grand Rapids, that's an amusing alternative acronym for the Great Reformed Ping List that I'd never thought of.
However, I don't think even back in the 1970s or early 1980s, when I was spending a lot of time in that library, that very many of the patrons of the Grand Rapids Public Library would have been mistaken for being confessional Calvinists. Grand Rapids has taken a serious wrong turn and did so several decades ago.
Okay, Elkfersupper, I'm game for a debate on homosexuality.
I spent a lot of time on that issue years ago in a former denomination, and while I didn't expect to see that discussion here on Free Republic, I think we need to be ready to give an answer at all times and in all places for what we believe as Christians.
Let's start with a simple question for clarification, and then a more probing question.
1. You say you don't believe lesbianism is a sin. That is an unusual way to phrase the statement. Does that mean you do have an objection to male homosexuality but not to lesbianism? (Those familiar with these debates in Reform and Conservative Judaism may know why I'm asking the question, even though I'm guessing this is a tangent where Elkfersupper was not going.)
2. More to the point, however, your phrase implies that do you believe that sin exists, just that lesbianism isn't a sin. If I'm reading you correctly that you believe sin exists, how do we know what sin is?
I'll follow up based on your answers.
I don't want to presume what you believe; that's not fair to you and you deserve to be treated as an individual with your own views, neither blamed nor praised for somebody else’s views which you may not hold.
Please read this thread and then let's talk about the way people advocating an agenda very alien to what you and I believe have succeeded in manipulating American public opinion on homosexuality.
After the Ball—Why the Homosexual Movement Has Won
Crosswalk.com ^ | June 3, 2004 | Dr. R. Albert Mohler, Jr.