Posted on 05/08/2013 6:42:36 AM PDT by Timber Rattler
This is a request for information assistance. Last night, I received a disturbing email from a longtime friend and pastor from my hometown church, which is breaking from the corrupt, mainline Presbyterian Church (USA), like many others are doing. Apparently PC (USA) has asked the congregation for an exorbitant sum of money, and is threatening the church manse and other property in an effort to force the congregation back into the corrupted fold.
I've been out of the Presbyterian loop for a while but want to help, and so I'm wondering if anyone has any specific information about what is going on inside the PC (USA) that might be contributing to this ugly situation and what is being done to deal with it.
My prayers are with you. I was once an elder in a PCUSA church and gained visibility into the workings. Radicals have taken over the denomination and they are not guided by God.
I left, which was hard but I felt it was the only choice I had.
This is indeed an attempt to keep more of Christs flock tied to PCUSA's apostasy.
DJ, is there a list somewhere of these small churches that have been extorted-—it’d be nice to set up a network so that they can communicate and coordinate some sort of defense with each other.
Quite a number of years ago, our church made the decision to give up the property and go out on our own and now are in our own church.
Problem all churches in PCUSA have is the bylaws state the property belongs to the denomination as a whole rather than to an individual congregation. It is why so many congregations have chosen to stay over the years, even though the denomination was becoming increasing liberal and corrupt. There has been an incorrect thinking among some of the middle of the road congregations that they could live and let live, even if their particular congregation did not agree with the thinking at the top level.
I do think congregations need to simply walk away from their property. Leave PCUSA with empty husks they have to deal with. The church is not the property, it is the faithful.
Our story is that after more than spending lifetimes in the Presbyterian Church (it wasn't called PCUSA when we began as babies really) my husband was an Elder, leader of the Session and all other offices, etc., we made the decision that there was no hope of saving our church from its self!
We both spent some time "church shopping" and finally found some that preached and believed the bible in its entirety!
From day one, we didn't feel guilty as the same denomination that embraced "the mother's right to choose," also began with "gay friendly" gatherings and moved to "blessings of gay unions," to endorsing gays to leadership roles, all of which is against the teachings in the scriptures both Old and New Testaments!
My advice is to locate your local representative of the Alliance Defending Freedom network and they can either help you or direct you to someone who will help you.
As in some Episcopalian churches locally,the congregation had to gather donations, seek loans and purchase property from the denomination as a last resort.
The Layman Online does cover churches that are leaving PCUSA.
Guinston congregation overcomes two delayed votes for dismissal from PCUSA
The PC(USA) not to be confused with the other Presbyterian Church, is nothing more than a libtard factory from the top down. Even got into an argument with a “Pastor” when she declared Angels were not in the Bible....
While I am not a Sola Scripture, or literal reader by any stretch, to be so completely factually wrong on a basic and verifiable item causes me nothing but wonder about what it takes to be ordained in that “faith”.
The leity at that church were fine enough fellows, but its clear the entire church is corrupt and blasphemous from its core.
This was also the same pastor who would read a letter from Paul to whoever by making sure to add feminine adverbs and adjectives to the Gospel readings.... “When I was a boy or girl I engaged in boyish or girlish things”... And no I’m not making this up. I tried to point out that PAUL was most definitely never a GIRL.. adding “or girl” to the reading made no sense whatsoever... but fell on deaf leftist ears.
It aint your grandpappy’s presby church anymore. Satan’s little servants have subverted and taken it over. Pull out (and if they attack, defend as best you can). Just get out
In reading the BCO, however, I think the local congregation does indeed have a strong argument: there are clauses that make the local congregation responsible for buying, insuring, paying for, and maintaining property. However, paragraph G-4.02 is written contrary to this and declares that no matter who holds the mortgage - even if it is a corporation acting in the name of the local church body - the PCUSA claims is as being held "in trust" for their purposes. Nice to be able to claim something that they have no financial interest in. I suspect that this is counter to the corporate laws of most states, so a lawyer will be required to fight this battle -- for sure the national general assembly will want to fight it.
Also, there is a clause that the local church must get written permission from a presbytery before buying property. If this was never done, then I would expect that the national org would have even less of a claim.
Anyway, here is the BCO, for what it's worth.
One thing I would do if I were an elder is to calculate the total amount of dollars ever directly paid by the PCUSA either via Presbytery or General Assembly to that church, add interest, and then subtract all monies ever paid from the local congregation to those overseeing bodies. If the amount is greater than $0.00, send them a check for that amount with a letter that declares what it is for. If they cash it, then they could argue in court that the action indicated acceptance of the letter's terms. :D
Yep, that exactly what we’re trying to do—get out, but the threats are now coming in, and the congregation is in a desperate situation. This particular church is very old and relatively isolated out in the back country, and has never encountered this kind of nastiness and viciousness before from the main church, which is now nothing but a den of hypocrites and sodomites.
Virginia.
In the PC(USA) church property is owned by the Presbytery (group of geographically close churches) but is managed by the local Session (governing board). This is well documented in the bylaws of the PC(USA). Regardless of whether you approve of it or not it is the governing law of the denomination - a denomination that is structured on democratic principles. Granted the PC(USA) - of which I am a member - is quickly losing population because of the liberal direction taken at the national level. But many small-town churches remain the bedrock of conservative society. The mega-churches have to many votes to overcome on the national (General Assembly) level. Remember that King George II called the American Revolution the Presbyterian Revolution - 13 signers of the Declaration were Presbyterians. There is hope for us yet!
Well, very shortly, the PC (USA) will be the owners of a very old and very empty building if it continues with this evil course of action.
Not only the property but the denomination controls the retirement accounts for the pastors. If they leave they can also lose their retirement.
I spoke with a pastor once who quoted some stats about other pastors to me that were quite scary.
Something like 70% of practicing pastors don’t believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.
Just over 50% don’t believe Jesus is the Son of God or that he is Risen.
here are a a couple more articles of possible interest.
it appears that the PCUSA headquarters is in the Property Acquisition (or confiscation) business... maybe they’ll convert your church into a nice big gay bathhouse or Nazi party headquarters, consistent with their new political theology?
If I were in PCUSA I’d get out immediately. but insofar as the property is concerned it may be worthwhile to study this problem, issue a bit first... to see if there may be a way to salvage your building there?
but if the Devil gets the building, so be it.... get out of PCUSA it has gone to the Other Side.
sorry to say.
very sorry to have to say.
all the best,
fhc
this one may be the first article to read?
http://www.pewforum.org/Church-State-Law/Churches-in-Court%282%29.aspx
http://www.christianpost.com/news/presbyterian-battle-over-property-churches-intensifies-33002/
http://www.christianpost.com/news/pcusa-breakaway-megachurch-in-calif-in-property-dispute-72015/
http://www.appeal-democrat.com/articles/presbyterian-73282-church-property.html
http://www.layman.org/newsc45b/
Yes I’m aware of those ‘democratic principles’, but am also aware of the leftists who have worked their way into positions of power. Its a shame but I don’t believe the denomination is true to God any more. Individual churches are but this is forcing them to comply or die.
I attended and voted in one of the annual meetings (representing my church) in which they voted on whether to accept homosexuals as leaders and whether to accept abortion. In the end the vote was to defer the decision for one more year.
I knew many good and Godly people in the church but they had allowed a demonic influence to gain control.
Hate to say, but what you folks need to do is to bite the bullet and leave the PCUSA. If they have legal title to your church property then this is all you can legally do.
Of course, in another time believers would’ve marched on Louisville, seized the lesbians who run your denomination and then burn them at the stake like they deserve. Naturally, this is the 21st Century so I am not advocating the kind of Biblical response that is called for in this circumstance.
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