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The differences between Judaism and Zionism.
JEWS NOT ZIONISTS ^ | G. Neuburger

Posted on 02/25/2013 1:57:31 PM PST by Jo Nuvark

Judaism is Torah based and GOD honoring. Zionism is politically based and GODless. http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/differencejudzion.html

The role of Zionism in the Holocaust. http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/holocaust-zionism.htm


TOPICS: History; Judaism; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: 911truthers; antiwardotcom; fff; genesis123; henrymakow; israel; jews; judaism; lewrockwelldotcom; randsconcerntrolls; skinheadsonfr; waronterror; zionism
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There has been times before in Jewish history, as related in the Bible, when the masses were misled and only a minority of Jews clung to the true mission of the Jewish people. One of the first such of the occasions was the worship of the golden calf; today we unfortunately see a repetition of this, with the Zionist state now being the object of worship. Until the appearance and growing influence of political Zionism, Jewish leaders were chosen on the basis of their piety, decency, learning, and their love of justice and mercy. Today only too often so-called Jewish leaders, completely unqualified under Jewish law and traditional concepts, make pronouncements and decisions in the name and on behalf of the Jewish people. This is particularly true in the USA where there is the largest Jewish community in our time. I can never forget the remark of a woman in Oklahoma: "Isn't today's Judaism wonderful! All you have to do is give money."
1 posted on 02/25/2013 1:57:42 PM PST by Jo Nuvark
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To: Jo Nuvark

Whatever one may think of Israel and Zionism, most Jews (observant and non-observant) believe in defending the right of Jews to live in peace on the land God promised them.


2 posted on 02/25/2013 2:00:08 PM PST by Nachum (The Obama "List" at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: Jo Nuvark

Oh-oh.


3 posted on 02/25/2013 2:00:46 PM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: Jo Nuvark; SJackson; Zionist Conspirator

So are you Neturei Karta, Iranian, or some sort of replacement theologian?

Also, in reality:

1. Jewish people in the USA are barely supporters of Israel. This was evidenced by the last election. Those that are Zionist are in Israel.

2. As an Orthodox Jewish man myself, as well as a sabra-Israeli, you would find that the influence of the atheist types waning and the religious growing in Israel. Indeed, even among the non-observant, just being in Israel, and among other Jewish people makes them slowly-but-surely observant.

3. The Deformed do not speak for Judaism and are a waning influence, even in the USA. They’ll be Episcopalians in a generation. They have a loud voice because they are useful idiots for the Democrat Party, and thus propped up by state media.


4 posted on 02/25/2013 2:06:22 PM PST by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: chesley

I remember reading the the Odyssey was not actually written by Homer, but by another Greek with the same name. ;-)


5 posted on 02/25/2013 2:07:01 PM PST by SubMareener (Save us from Quarterly Freepathons! Become a MONTHLY DONOR!)
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To: Jo Nuvark

what is your point? This type of differential slander has been around for at least 120 years. How special to say that it is the ‘Zionists’ who want their own land....real Jews are happy where they are. These voices in the Jewish community walked their followers to death at the hands of the Nazis. How lucky for the Germans to only have to deal with the Jews and not the Zionists.....geeeez.


6 posted on 02/25/2013 2:12:53 PM PST by Nifster
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To: Nachum

I used to consider myself to be pro Jewish but anti Zionist. Fortunately reality intruded and I realized that I couldn’t be one or the other and my choices were blatant antisemitism or pro Jewish Zionism.

Today I stand firmly with Israel in pretty much all matters.


7 posted on 02/25/2013 2:14:49 PM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Jo Nuvark

There is no Jewish state in the land of Israel without Zionism. There is no other definition for that term. Anyone who claims otherwise is echoing Helen Thomas.


8 posted on 02/25/2013 2:17:52 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: cripplecreek

I watched Schindler’s List for the first time Saturday night. The Soviet Soldier explains the need for Zionism. “You have been liberated by the Soviet Army. Don’t go East because they hate you there. Don’t go West either”.


9 posted on 02/25/2013 2:18:30 PM PST by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: Jewbacca; Nachum

The article makes a case for the differences.
I am a Messianic believer in JESUS CHRIST
and want to understand better the ideology of
Zionism vs. Judaism. I think the writer makes
a compelling case against Zionism.

I can agree Jewbacca, that believing, observant
Jews are beginning to surge in Israel. However, the
United States fosters “cultural” everything. The
American cultural Jew would be no threat to anyone.

(my opinion)


10 posted on 02/25/2013 2:31:55 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: Jo Nuvark

In a war between the civilized man and the savage, defend the civilized man.


11 posted on 02/25/2013 2:42:55 PM PST by marron
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To: Jo Nuvark

There is no “ideology of Zionism vs. Judaism”

Jews are a people. Our home is Israel. Not complicated.

Some Jewish people are religious. Our religion is Judaism.

There is no conflict accepting non-religious Jews in Israel. It’s their home. Would I prefer them to be observant?

Sure. I also would prefer honest politicians that didn’t steal my money and my time.


12 posted on 02/25/2013 2:47:13 PM PST by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: marron

Pamela Geller - AtlasShrugs.com

13 posted on 02/25/2013 2:55:36 PM PST by Perseverando (Gun control? It's really not about gun control is it? It's really about PEOPLE CONTROL!)
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To: Jo Nuvark

I was hoping someone would actually read the
article so we could have a good discussion.

Nothing in either article (that I noticed) speaks
of Jews giving up their land as a Judaic litmus.

(sigh)


14 posted on 02/25/2013 2:56:02 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: Jewbacca

There are two types of Jews in America today. Those that believe in Israel. They are called Zionists. And those that do not believe in Israel. They are called Iiberals.


15 posted on 02/25/2013 2:56:55 PM PST by EQAndyBuzz (Got a problem? Nothing a drone strike can't fix.)
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To: Jewbacca

Zionism vs. Judaism is a typical muzzie dodge: “We don’t hate Jews, just Zionists.”

Except that in Israel the terrorists presume every Israeli Jew a Zionist and it’s therefore OK for jihadis to kill Jewish women & children as they are considered `reservists’ and providers of future IDF soldiers, and constitute legitimate targets.

Bloody savages!


16 posted on 02/25/2013 2:57:51 PM PST by elcid1970 ("The Second Amendment is more important than Islam.")
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To: Jo Nuvark

17 posted on 02/25/2013 3:11:14 PM PST by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Jo Nuvark

Without Zionism there can be no Judaism. Just ask the Jews of Poland. Oh, never mind, you can’t, because what was Europe’s largest Jewish population was exterminated.


18 posted on 02/25/2013 3:17:31 PM PST by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: Jo Nuvark

Without Zionism there can be no Judaism. Just ask the Jews of Poland. Oh, never mind, you can’t, because what was Europe’s largest Jewish population was exterminated.


19 posted on 02/25/2013 3:17:45 PM PST by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: Jo Nuvark

If Zionism means that Jews have an absolute God-given right to the Holy Land, then I’m pro Zionist. The bastardized Palestinians have no right to land given to the Jews.


20 posted on 02/25/2013 3:37:46 PM PST by 2nd Amendment (Proud member of the 48% . . giver not a taker)
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To: Jo Nuvark; All
Well . . . almost fourteen years after I first registered here to respond to stuff like this and it seems it still goes on.

Charedi ("ultra-Orthodox") Jews are "anti-Zionist" in that they reject Zionism as a modern, secular European nationalist movement that sought to create an ethnically Jewish but modern European-style state in the Holy Land. However, they still believe that one day Mashiach will come, gather all Jews to 'Eretz Yisra'el, and reinstitute the Kingdom of David.

Most non-Jewish anti-Zionists interpret "Zionism" as something completely different--a "plot to rule the world." Anti-Semitic gentiles often invoke anti-Zionist Charedim in their own war against "Jewish world rule." However, even the most anti-Zionist Charedim still believe in "Jewish world rule" in the sense of the Kingdom of G-d on earth, with its capital in Jerusalem. Thus anti-Zionist gentiles who believe "anti-Zionist" Charedim are opposed to the alleged "Jewish plot to rule the world" are making fools of themselves, in two ways: 1)Zionism is not a "plot to rule the world" but a mere secular nationalist movement, and 2)all Orthodox Jews, including the Charedim, believe Mashiach will rule the world.

Let's hope we've seen the last of this idiocy at FR (but something tells me we should know better).

21 posted on 02/25/2013 3:45:02 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Jo Nuvark
The article makes a case for the differences. I am a Messianic believer in JESUS CHRIST and want to understand better the ideology of Zionism vs. Judaism. I think the writer makes a compelling case against Zionism.

Do you honestly believe that "anti-Zionist" Orthodox Jews are any friendlier to chrstianity than Zionists are? If anything, it's the other way around. Zionism was originally a mere secular ethnic nationalism and Herzl offered to have all the Jews baptized. Judaism, however, is totally incompatible with chrstianity. And if you don't believe that, try preaching your Yushqe to the anti-Zionists you're so fond of.

22 posted on 02/25/2013 3:49:35 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
all Orthodox Jews, including the Charedim, believe Mashiach will rule the world.

And on that, we're in agreement too.

23 posted on 02/25/2013 3:55:54 PM PST by marron
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To: Zionist Conspirator; All

Thank you ZC.

That’s the kind of response I was hoping for.
I did not realize anti-zionism is linked to non
Jews and is considered racist and anti-semitic.
THAT is not what I’m trying to get at. I am
simply trying to understand the difference
between Judaism and Zionism. After reading
the article I believe there is a difference and
people should be as informed as you appear to
be.

Thank you for taking the time to respond with
courtesy and knowledge.


24 posted on 02/25/2013 3:57:38 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Jews might not believe they are compatible with
Christianity, but without the context and prism
of Hebrew Roots, Christians cannot fully under-
stand what it means to be Christian.

The NT is a gentile primer to get believers up
to speed on what this “grafting” really means.

(my opinion)


25 posted on 02/25/2013 4:03:55 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: Jo Nuvark

There is a very simple definition of Zionism: a Jew who lives in Israel. That was the point of Herzl founding the movement. The citizens are required to fight wars, at least one in each decade; stand against terrorist waves; keep an eye on neighbors who build nukes: Iraq (destroyed), Syria (destroyed), Iran (pending), and meanwhile try to keep a job, raise the kids, and pay your taxes. Jews who live outside Israel can say whatever they want. It doesn’t change anything. Some will come and some will go. Those who stay are Zionists, for better or for worse.


26 posted on 02/25/2013 4:12:19 PM PST by idov
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To: Jo Nuvark

Flat out garbage! Genesis has Hashem saying to the Jews to leave the land of their birth and go to the land I will show you (Judea). Zionism is based in the Jewish religion.


27 posted on 02/25/2013 4:41:24 PM PST by Stepan12
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To: Jo Nuvark
Wow. I'd have certainly thought this gobbledy-gook zot-worthy.

Oh well -- and I never get to write this -- IBTZ!

28 posted on 02/25/2013 4:52:26 PM PST by BfloGuy (Money, like chocolate on a hot oven, was melting in the pockets of the people.)
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To: BfloGuy

CBRA ... Commenting Before Reading Article.


29 posted on 02/25/2013 5:15:11 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: Jo Nuvark

Modern political Zionism is based on the hope that Jews do not need Judaism to survive as Jews, something that is impossible long-term.

Religious Jews respond to the secular State of Israel basically in one of three ways:

1) The State of Israel is the precursor to the Messianic Age and should be supported wholeheartedly.

2) The State of Israel does not *necessarily* have any messianic implications, but it is a place of refuge for persecuted Jews and home to almost half the Jews in the world and deserves support for those reasons.

3) The State of Israel is just another nation under non-Jewish sovereignty, but the Land of Israel is still holy and it is meritorious to live there regardless of the sinful nature of its government, which does not merit support.


30 posted on 02/25/2013 5:50:16 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Jewbacca

The G. J. Neuberger quoted is in fact a member of Neturei Karta.


31 posted on 02/25/2013 5:54:29 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto

Thank you for taking my post seriously and for
offering a cogent reply. You seem to be saying
what I am beginning to understand; there is a
difference between Judaism and Zionism. For the
moment I agree with your second definition.

Don’t you wish more people would read the article
before responding?


32 posted on 02/25/2013 5:55:34 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: jjotto; Jewbacca

Neturei Karta is an international organization
of Orthodox Jews dedicated to the propagation
and clarification of Torah Judaism.


33 posted on 02/25/2013 5:58:49 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: jjotto

For the moment I believe your second definition best describes Zionism.


34 posted on 02/25/2013 6:02:13 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: Jo Nuvark

Posting an article from Neturei Karta is perhaps more inflammatory than you wish to be.

There are respectable skeptics of Zionism and even respectable anti-Zionists such as Satmar Chassidim, but Neturei Karta goes far beyond that into outright mental illness. NK followers probably number no more than in the dozens, BTW.


35 posted on 02/25/2013 6:04:14 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto

Thank you.
Did not know that about NK.
I will research SC.


36 posted on 02/25/2013 6:14:04 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

Zionism, of course, is an essentially secular movement, essentially validating the right of Jews to live where they wish. A simplistic concept, perhaps, only nutballs question the ability of Americans to live in America, but as a eurocentric movement, it's roots are in a nearly millenia old culture which told Jews to live where and under circumstances directed, and don't whine about it.

The early Zionists were not religious Jews, simply forsaw the future of Europe better than many of their co-religionists.

37 posted on 02/25/2013 6:41:46 PM PST by SJackson (The Pilgrims—Doing the jobs Native Americans wouldn’t do !)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

Zionism, of course, is an essentially secular movement, essentially validating the right of Jews to live where they wish. A simplistic concept, perhaps, only nutballs question the ability of Americans to live in America, but as a eurocentric movement, it's roots are in a nearly millenia old culture which told Jews to live where and under circumstances directed, and don't whine about it.

The early Zionists were not religious Jews, simply forsaw the future of Europe better than many of their co-religionists.

38 posted on 02/25/2013 6:42:29 PM PST by SJackson (The Pilgrims—Doing the jobs Native Americans wouldn’t do !)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

Zionism, of course, is an essentially secular movement, essentially validating the right of Jews to live where they wish. A simplistic concept, perhaps, only nutballs question the ability of Americans to live in America, but as a eurocentric movement, it's roots are in a nearly millenia old culture which told Jews to live where and under circumstances directed, and don't whine about it.

The early Zionists were not religious Jews, simply forsaw the future of Europe better than many of their co-religionists.

39 posted on 02/25/2013 6:43:34 PM PST by SJackson (The Pilgrims—Doing the jobs Native Americans wouldn’t do !)
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To: Jo Nuvark

While it is difficult to begrudge a homeland, obtaining it by any and all means goes against the fundamental tenets of Judaism.

“Give it to us now or we will take it by force”


40 posted on 02/25/2013 6:50:41 PM PST by conserv8 (Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon. . .)
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To: SJackson; Jo Nuvark
Religious Zionism preceded the modern Zionist movement. Orthodox Jews, even those who put a Roman-imposed Rabbinic Ruling ahead of the Torah, pray for a return to Zion 3 times a day. In fact, I would argue that Religious Zionists created the modern Zionist movement, with Herzl merely being a better spokesman to the gentiles. Rabbi Zvi Hirsch Kalischer wrote "Drishat Zion" in 1862, when Herzl was in diapers. When Herzl was learning to read, Rabbi Kalischer was reaching out to non-Orthodox Jewish leaders as well as setting up societies to settle Ottoman-occupied Israe. http://www.traditiononline.org/news/originals/Volume%2016/No.%201/Proto-Zionism.pdf

It took the Dreyfus affair for the assimilated Jews to begin to catch on.

As for JEWS NOT ZIONISTS, I don't consider them Jews. Speaking merely as a Jew, I consider them heretics who pray at the altar of dead Roman soldiers and piss on the Torah. A ruling imposed by gentile swords is inherently invalid. Those who would use it to attack other Jews, while recieving money from Jew killers should be excommunicated and ostracized as the whores they are.
Every word they write is a Chilul Hashem, a defamation of the name of G_d.

41 posted on 02/25/2013 7:14:16 PM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Jo Nuvark
http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/holocaust-zionism.htm

I appreciate Rabbi Teitelbaum taking time off from protecting pedophiles long enough to remind us that he is a senile twit who will commit additional desercrations of Judaism like lying about Zionists. In the real world, Zionists and anti-Zionists alike tried to negotiate with the Nazis to save as many Jews as possible.

Jo Nuvark, you aren't a Jew and you have no idea what you are playing with.

42 posted on 02/25/2013 7:19:38 PM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: conserv8
While it is difficult to begrudge a homeland, obtaining it by any and all means goes against the fundamental tenets of Judaism. “Give it to us now or we will take it by force”
Go read the Books of Exodus and Joshua before telling us what is and is not Judaism.

But the argument should be moot. Israel exists. The anti-Zionists are not anti-violence. Rather they are delusional useful idiots or fanatics who want the wholesale slaughter and subjugation of Jews. Because that is what will happen to destroy Israel.
I see no reason to argue with mentally ill heretics or with those who seek the slaughter of Jews. As for those too stupid to understand impications, don't expect me to be polite if they are above 13 and have an IQ above body temperature.

43 posted on 02/25/2013 7:28:16 PM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Jo Nuvark; jjotto; Jewbacca
Neturei Karta is an international organization of Orthodox Jews dedicated to the propagation and clarification of Torah Judaism.

In the same sense that the Westboro Baptist Chruch is an international organization of Fundamentalist Christians dedicated to the propagation and clarification of Biblical Christianity.

44 posted on 02/25/2013 8:00:38 PM PST by Slings and Arrows (You can't have IngSoc without an Emmanuel Goldstein.)
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To: rmlew

The point is not really moot.

In Exodus and Joshua the tribes were operating upon and by directives.

The whole premise is that it was up to Hashem to instigate the return.

Yet others took it upon themselves to do so at the cost of great bloodshed.

If you read Zechariah, it state that the city shall be taken and half of the inhabitants shall go into captivity.

Perhaps that is a result of the point not being moot.


45 posted on 02/25/2013 8:35:18 PM PST by conserv8 (Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon. . .)
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To: Jo Nuvark
God bless you. It seems strange that the first Christians WERE Jewish but now it is rare to find a Jewish person who has accepted Jesus Christ as the Messiah. We know from Scripture that, one day the Jewish nation, "will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. (Zechariah 12:10) and that all Israel will be saved. I pray for the peace of Jerusalem and I love the Jewish people.
46 posted on 02/25/2013 10:25:32 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums
one day the Jewish nation, "will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. (Zechariah 12:10) and that all Israel will be saved.

By that point in the Tribulation, "all Israel" might not be that many people.

47 posted on 02/25/2013 10:31:48 PM PST by kevao (.)
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To: Jo Nuvark

Bookmark for later.


48 posted on 02/26/2013 3:51:42 AM PST by Earthdweller (Harvard won the election again...so what's the problem.......? Embrace a ruler today.)
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To: Slings and Arrows

Westboro Baptist Church is neither Baptist nor Christian by any reasonable definition.

Neither is it ‘fundamentalist” in the original definition of the term.

They are a disgrace to all mankind.


49 posted on 02/26/2013 5:44:45 AM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: jjotto

“Religious Jews respond to the secular State of Israel basically in one of three ways:

1) The State of Israel is the precursor to the Messianic Age and should be supported wholeheartedly.

2) The State of Israel does not *necessarily* have any messianic implications, but it is a place of refuge for persecuted Jews and home to almost half the Jews in the world and deserves support for those reasons.

3) The State of Israel is just another nation under non-Jewish sovereignty, but the Land of Israel is still holy and it is meritorious to live there regardless of the sinful nature of its government, which does not merit support.”

Great post. I concur. Not sure where I fall on 1-3, but it’s one of the three.

Israel is also my home where I grew up, where I flew to defend my country, and where my daughters and grandbabies live.


50 posted on 02/26/2013 7:32:37 AM PST by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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