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If tithes go to pastors, what about Deut 26:12 where tithes went to widows, etc, every 3rd year?
2/11/2013 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist

Posted on 02/11/2013 12:14:15 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist

In certain passages of scripture it says that tithes are to be given to the Levites, and then the Levites were to give a tenth to the priests. In other scriptures is says to bring ye the tithe into the storehouse, that my house may be full.

Deuteronomy 26:12 says that every third year, that in addition to giving to the Levites, some of the tithe must go to widows, orphans, (the down-and-out), etc.

Now, if in modern times we give tithes to our local church that we attend and tithes are then used to pay for the pastors salary (them being the modern Levite equivalency), youth pastors salary, staff salary, utility bills, etc, why isn't a portion of this shared with widows, orphans, etc?

I mean, if cash is given to pastors through tithes, why doesn't cash go to widows every third year? With the scriptures saying to pay tithes unto Levites every year, and then every third year repeating this but adding in widows for example, that ties in widows with getting part of the tithe.

Some might say that widows, the down-and-out, etc, can receive cash assistance from the gov't. But if widows, orphans, the down-and-out, etc, can go to the gov't for help, why don't we send pastors there, too?

And if widows, orphans, the down-and-out, etc, can go to churches and get help at these church food banks, why don't those same churches send their pastors to the church food bank(s)?

If widows don't get a portion of the tithe every 3 years, then what do you do with the tithe for the pastor that 3rd year?


TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; History; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: religion; tithes; tithing
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1 posted on 02/11/2013 12:14:20 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist; All

What is your opinion on this whole matter, on tithing, etc?

All opinions - all - are welcome.


2 posted on 02/11/2013 12:15:50 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Why do you assume it isn’t? Sure, there are some churches where it goes to new chandeliers, gilded chairs, and blue wigs for their TV personalities, but for many, if not most, I am betting a much larger percentage goes to ‘widows and orphans’ than is required by this passage.


3 posted on 02/11/2013 12:17:05 PM PST by mnehring
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Now, if in modern times we give tithes to our local church that we attend and tithes are then used to pay for the pastors salary (them being the modern Levite equivalency), youth pastors salary, staff salary, utility bills, etc, why isn’t a portion of this shared with widows, orphans, etc?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

First of all, you need to give a New Testament commandment, reference or example of where tithing applies today

(We’ll wait....)


4 posted on 02/11/2013 12:19:13 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: mnehring

So pastors across the land share a portion of the tithe every third year, with widows getting cash just like pastors and staff do do?


5 posted on 02/11/2013 12:20:33 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

My take,

1) Tithing is a voluntary act, given of your first fruits, to be undertaken with a cheerful and giving heart.

2) Tithes are for the church and to allow the church to do Gods work.

3) Thus, some of the tithe is for the Pastor. Some of the tithe is for the church to use - supporting missionaries, giving aid (we give to needy families identified by the congregation or other churches) and as well, for the support of the churches elderly/widows.

Having said all that, I am thankful to the Lord for giving me the ability to give and help.


6 posted on 02/11/2013 12:22:25 PM PST by RoadGumby (This is not where I belong, Take this world and give me Jesus.)
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To: Responsibility2nd

Didn’t Abraham pay tithes before the Law was given?

Now, he gave this voluntarily, but it was a commandment under the Law of Moses.


7 posted on 02/11/2013 12:22:25 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
why isn't a portion of this shared with widows, orphans, etc?

Do you actually attend a church where they don't have a mission/program that helps the poor?

8 posted on 02/11/2013 12:23:26 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Responsibility2nd

And the ‘Love of Money’ rears its ugly head


9 posted on 02/11/2013 12:24:27 PM PST by RoadGumby (This is not where I belong, Take this world and give me Jesus.)
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To: thackney; All

So, in the month of January or Feb. or March, let’s say that a mega church pulls in $2 million in tithes, with the pastor getting a portion of that.

Is that church going to give, say, 2 or 3 thousnad dollars to every widow in that church - cash - like they give to the pastor of that church?

Hmmm?


10 posted on 02/11/2013 12:26:07 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Responsibility2nd

Yes, that’s it, we all forgot. The Old Tetstament has nothing to do with God or Jesus, so all that stuff can be ignored. No need for those nasty 10 commandments, or that whole, God created marriage thing, either


11 posted on 02/11/2013 12:26:32 PM PST by RoadGumby (This is not where I belong, Take this world and give me Jesus.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Not directly but the general concept of 1/3rd of tithes go to these type of services doesn’t seem that off.


12 posted on 02/11/2013 12:27:31 PM PST by mnehring
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

There were one or two references to tithing before the Law given, correct, but the Law is now non-applicable, and we are under grace. You are obviously trying to convict the church “under the law.” Under grace, it’s about the condition of the heart - of the giver and the givee....and some on both sides of the coin have the proper heart and some on both sides do not.

You might want to peek at the part of the Book that begins with “In the beginning was the Word......” and not just the part that starts with “In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth...”


13 posted on 02/11/2013 12:29:40 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright
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To: mnehring; All

If direct cash (from the tithe) goes to pastors, I wonder if these same pastors would support direct cash going to widows (from that same tithe) - a third of the whole tithe?


14 posted on 02/11/2013 12:29:40 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: RoadGumby

“And the ‘Love of Money’ rears its ugly head.”

You are so very wrong.

But then you were wrong upthread when you said.... “Tithing is a voluntary act.”


15 posted on 02/11/2013 12:30:12 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
This is a question you are entitled to ask to your church. My church gives out donated food EVERY Saturday. They also have a fund to pay electric bills and other such obligations.

I'm sure you can find a church that would meet your expectations if you look and ask. Many give larger amounts to missions than locals. You should have a say in that, IMO. I look for a church that gives to the locals and ministers to them. Christ becomes real to the helped if they can see it in the community. To brag that you support missions in Africa and such is fine, but we don't see it up close, so it seems of little use.

IMHO, to worry if a church gives to widows every 3 years to match the Bible is a little like the Pharisee's. The pastor knows his salary going in, so He should be more worried about how the money is distributed. If the church grows, he must be doing something right, so why not a raise? If it's shrinking, obviously he doesn't need a raise. Wanting a nicer car doesn't make your preaching better.

As far as the Christian duty to tithe, that's covered in Scripture, no matter where the money goes. I'm sure you can find a place to tithe if you disapprove of the local method.

16 posted on 02/11/2013 12:30:14 PM PST by chuckles
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I understand that passage to be about supporting those that could not support themselves.

Do you believe it means to pay any woman who’s husband dies, regardless if they may be an actual queen in those biblical times?

As for what I mega church does, I could care less. I care about my church. Those that financially support that mega church can be concerned with it.


17 posted on 02/11/2013 12:31:08 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Responsibility2nd; Laissez-faire capitalist
you need to give a New Testament commandment, reference or example of where tithing applies today

Too easy...

Mathew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

However, IMO, we're required to ensure the proper distribution of such, even if it means withholding a portion of the church's share for others, as one sees fit.

Or better, giving more ...

18 posted on 02/11/2013 12:32:15 PM PST by Errant
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To: C. Edmund Wright

Before the Law it was voluntary, not required.

What I wonder more than anything is if these televangelists are willing to share a part of the cash tithe that they take in and share it with widows in their churches?


19 posted on 02/11/2013 12:32:27 PM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Responsibility2nd

How is that wrong? Tithing IS giving, and not begrudgingly, either, lest it be in vain.


20 posted on 02/11/2013 12:32:51 PM PST by RoadGumby (This is not where I belong, Take this world and give me Jesus.)
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To: thackney

At my old church they had 10% of spending to outside ministries for the missions, poor, etc. (So even the church tithed).

At my current church it is 15%. The year-end request for folks to send in any pledged amounts and to bring the end-of-year budget shortfall up-to-date brought in MUCH more than had been pledged for the year. Half of that excess went into savings for a “long term” future Capital Projects campaign, and the other half went to outside groups in the local area serving the poor, etc.


21 posted on 02/11/2013 12:33:01 PM PST by 21twelve ("We've got the guns, and we got the numbers" adapted and revised from Jim M.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I guess it depends on what you think is the important part of that scripture. If every ‘jot or tittle’ be followed or if it is the spirit of the concept. So many cultural things play into effect. Often just handing cash can be a detriment versus things like providing a home, food, clothing, etc. In our society, giving cash has tax challenges.

I see the spirit in that they didn’t want to have a situation where the priest (pastor, etc) takes all the tithes for himself but the purpose of at least a third goes to those in need. It is part of a symbol of the duty of the church.


22 posted on 02/11/2013 12:33:48 PM PST by mnehring
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
...some of the tithe must go to widows, orphans, (the down-and-out), etc.

Considering that most churches don't even manage to get 2-3% of the congregations' earnings (if they're lucky), and that many lead pastors work 60-80 hour weeks, I believe that the pastor's wife and children should count as down-and-out widows and orphans.

23 posted on 02/11/2013 12:35:37 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: Responsibility2nd

If we start from the position that it’s not really OUR money anyway,

and that for Christians, Jesus said

“Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.”

C.S. Lewis famously said, when a friend scolded him for handing out money to beggars, indicating that they would only drink it, “Well, if I kept it, that’s what I would do with it.”


24 posted on 02/11/2013 12:35:37 PM PST by Dogbert41
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To: Responsibility2nd

Sorry, burden of proof is on you. If the tithe was required under the Old Testament, and God then further graced us with a Savior, then why should we give less now than was required then? Seems ungrateful to me.


25 posted on 02/11/2013 12:36:31 PM PST by dinoparty
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
Deuteronomy 26:12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

It wasn't only the fatherless and the widow that was to be supported in the 3rd year.

26 posted on 02/11/2013 12:36:36 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

If a XPian gives to United Way, I ask...why?

If a XPian gives to Susan G. Kommen, I ask...why?

If a XPian considers buying Girls Scout cookies a donation, I ask...why?


27 posted on 02/11/2013 12:38:26 PM PST by Cletus.D.Yokel (*Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alteration: The acronym explains the science.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

I’ve pointed this out on FR several years ago.

The priests had no land so they had to live on the offerings the people gave them. This was the tithe and it was not given every year.

The Christian today is to give “as God has prospered”.
“Not grudgingly but cheerful”, BUT “one who ignores his own family is worse than a thief and an infidel.”


28 posted on 02/11/2013 12:40:41 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar ( Too old to cut the mustard any more.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
I would much rather willingly give tithes than have the government threaten me to get funds to redistribute.

I'm LDS and do believe in a tithe, but not to pay the pastor. Our Bishop or pastor serves as a volunteer and does not get paid. Our tithes and fast offerings go to our church and it is the Bishop who is responsible to help people in need with the available funds and supplies from the Bishop's storehouse.

Good luck - Now this thread will probably turn into a mormon bashing thread so rather than follow up I will go now and cling to my bible and shop for ammo online:)

29 posted on 02/11/2013 12:43:25 PM PST by Rockwarf (Wally)
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To: RoadGumby

***And the ‘Love of Money’ rears its ugly head****

This reminds me of a Charlie Russell painting of two cowboys robbing a fat preacher. The poem with it goes...

If money’s the root of all evil,
Your Reverence is going to weed.

It’s the duty of a Saint, not a sinner,
To shake out his clothes for the seed.

Funny poem but the actual quote is “The LOVE of money is the root of all evil”.

Someone years ago pointed out that most wars were over economics.


30 posted on 02/11/2013 12:44:41 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar ( Too old to cut the mustard any more.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

“one who ignores his own family”

But the crucial issue here is what does it mean to “ignore”? I would say that letting them literally starve of malnutrition would be “ignoring”. But not letting them have an expensive college education or a quality car as teenagers is not “ignoring” by any stretch.


31 posted on 02/11/2013 12:47:46 PM PST by dinoparty
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
I have never been part of a church where the pastor gets the entire tithe.

The tithes and faith promises were put into a general fund, unless certain giving was for a special fund, ie.. building fund, missions, deacons fund, etc.

Out of the general fund the pastors salary was paid, along with other things, such as aforementioned.

Its also important to know the earlier titheS. Because ancient tithes weren't just limited to one 10% tithe. There was also a festival tithe and a poor tithe.

The first tithe was to maintain the Levites. The second tithe was for festivals, the Jewish holidays. THEN there was another tithe taken every 3 years for the poor and widows.

So "tithing" ran upwards of 23%.

But of course its important to note, at that time there also WERE NO TAXES.

32 posted on 02/11/2013 12:49:12 PM PST by mountn man (ATTITUDE- The Pleasure You Get From Life, Is Equal To The Attitude You Put Into It.)
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To: RoadGumby

Wow. You are all over the road today. And wrong on every point.

And - in case you didn’t know - the topic is tithing not marriage or the 10 commandments.

Try to keep up, mmm-kay?


33 posted on 02/11/2013 12:50:23 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

If Christians gave as much to the church to take care of their souls as they do to their doctors and insurance company to take care of their bodies, there would be no shortage of money for the mission of Jesus to preach the Gospel all over the world.

Your body will decay in the ground, while your soul and your glorified body will live for eternity. The latter is a much better investment.


34 posted on 02/11/2013 12:50:31 PM PST by txrefugee
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

This government has taken over the task of supposedly caring for those in need.

This was and is accepted by most of the church in America as right and good, because like everything else, is absolved the individual to do charity and put it within the province of government to handle.

This too absolved the church in it’s responsibility, and many were happy that the funds saved by no longer needing to do James 1:27, could be spent on the gilded chairs, blue wigs and coffee shops in the atriums of newly finished mega church buildings.

I cannot say I am sorry for painting with such a broad brush - because this depraved culture that the lukewarm church has lost to Secular hedonists, are the fruits of what I charge.

The church is the complicit party in helping the government replace it’s role in doing charity and James 1:27, of which it was our individual responsibility within the congregation to provide. So much so that government has now replaced God in the religion of many in this nation in decline towards collapse.

As a matter of biblical record, tithing was done BEFORE the Law of God was handed to Moses (i.e.: Abraham and Melchizidek). And since John 1:1-3, 14 was cited - I bristle at the suggestion that tithing and all aspects of the Law of God are no longer valid. Clearly it was Jesus Himself who made all things and did all things in behalf of the Father. That would include writing the Commandments and even all the ordinances of which tithing was also part.

God loves a cheerful giver, and while mandated tithing does not encourage a cheerful giver, willingly offering the first of your labors to God, is not just a test of faith - but it often opens the gates to blessings one may never realize and puts their heart in the place they place their treasure.


35 posted on 02/11/2013 12:50:46 PM PST by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Where in the New Testament are the purveyors of the Gospel paid money for their services?


36 posted on 02/11/2013 12:52:04 PM PST by rsobin
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To: RoadGumby

Tithing was an Old Testament COMMANDMENT. It was not optional.

Read your Bible.


37 posted on 02/11/2013 12:52:48 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Errant

I read Matthew 5:17. I read the whole 5th chapter. Nothing there about tithing (A non-voluntary commandment). Nothing there about giving (voluntary) either.


38 posted on 02/11/2013 12:55:53 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: dinoparty

Sorry, burden of proof is on you. If the tithe was required under the Old Testament....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry back at ya. The burden of proof is ON THE BIBLE. Specifically the New Testament.

I find it sad that so many Christians are not taught the fundamental basics of tithing verses voluntarily giving.

I blame greedy churches who guilt trip their members into tithing.


39 posted on 02/11/2013 12:59:34 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Well televangelists are in an entirely different category, and before the Law is totally non relevant to our conversation. But to answer your questions, so do, some don’t. For the record, widows and orphans would, in context, be any unmarried woman of age and any child without support.


40 posted on 02/11/2013 1:00:04 PM PST by C. Edmund Wright
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To: Rockwarf
Now this thread will probably turn into a mormon bashing thread so rather than follow up I will go now and cling to my bible and shop for ammo online:)

Oh, don't sound so bitter about it.

41 posted on 02/11/2013 1:00:47 PM PST by Alex Murphy ("If you are not firm in faith, you will not be firm at all" - Isaiah 7:9)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

You can reach into your pocket and give money into the hands of people.


42 posted on 02/11/2013 1:02:31 PM PST by Berlin_Freeper (If you want to ring the bell - you got to swing the hammer hard!)
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To: Responsibility2nd

You ignored my question. Why would we be less willing to give a full tithe than we were prior to the Saviour walking the earth? Just because its not “commanded” anymore is your answer? I assume you recognize the smallness and cold-heartedness of your attitude and revel in it. I feel sorry for you.


43 posted on 02/11/2013 1:04:49 PM PST by dinoparty
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To: Responsibility2nd

Are you trying to differentiate tithing (giving 10%) between just giving to the church?

- - - - -

1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

Acts 20:35
... remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’

Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

2 Corinthians 9:7
Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Mark 12:41-44
Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny.

Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”


44 posted on 02/11/2013 1:05:13 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Responsibility2nd
>>Now, if in modern times we give tithes to our local church that we attend and tithes are then used to pay for the pastors salary (them being the modern Levite equivalency), youth pastors salary, staff salary, utility bills, etc, why isn’t a portion of this shared with widows, orphans, etc?
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>First of all, you need to give a New Testament commandment, reference or example of where tithing applies today
>(We’ll wait....)

Actually that's kinda easy, answering the last first:
James 1:27 - Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
1 Timothy 5:16-18 - If any man or woman that believeth have widows, let them relieve them, and let not the church be charged; that it may relieve them that are widows indeed. Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

The italicized deals w/ widows, and the underlined with paying pastors (indeed, anyone you have laboring on your behalf).

45 posted on 02/11/2013 1:06:00 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Why aren’t the pastors supporting themselves? Then the members could better care for the widows and such.


46 posted on 02/11/2013 1:08:52 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

Well here goes and no doubt i will catch hell.

The old covenant has been done away with.

God says to bring all of the tithes into the store house so that the people can be fed.

The people could not be fed the truth from a bunch of government paid hirelings.

Not just a tenth but all of it, the tithes were called in.

The government of Israel was destroyed, they no longer had a state run Church.

The early Christians who wanted to serve God sold what they had and gave it to the apostles and they all lived in common,

They collected alms from people who were not members of the church but were Christians, the actual church members could not pay alms because they did not have money of their own.

A paid preacher is a hireling, Jesus said you can not trust them because they will flee when the wolf comes.

It is common knowledge that they will quit one Church and go to another for better pay.

So are they really serving God or them selves?


47 posted on 02/11/2013 1:11:29 PM PST by ravenwolf
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To: dinoparty

You assume too much. I repeat myself: A tithe was REQUIRED under the law. There was no love involved. Laying by in store (voluntarily giving) is NOT tithing; it is a free-will gift of love, not duty.

And because you are so misinformed about tithing verses giving, I’ll ignore your misinformed comments about me.


48 posted on 02/11/2013 1:12:02 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: thackney

Thank you. Finally someone gets it.

These passages (and more) from the NT are in stark contrast to the legalistic OT command to tithe.


49 posted on 02/11/2013 1:14:29 PM PST by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Responsibility2nd
Nothing there about tithing (A non-voluntary commandment). Nothing there about giving (voluntary) either.

I'd think twice before using that line as an excuse on judgment day. But that's just me...

50 posted on 02/11/2013 1:15:46 PM PST by Errant
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