Posted on 02/11/2013 8:32:29 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
If those who assembled on the Day of Pentecost (the 120 who assembled together before they spake with tongues on the Day of Pentecost, and before Peter preached his sermon) were already saved, were believers, had seen him ascend to heaven, etc, and the Body of Christ (the church) then must already have been in existence before the Day of Pentecost.
Would someone please explain, then, how the church wasn't formed or "born" until the day of Pentecost?
Was the church just halfway outside the womb pre-Day of Pentecost? Did it have to wait until the Day of Pentecost to be born? How???
This is in response to some answers (and email) to the previous thread that I posted concerning this topic.
But He also speaks of it as something that He would build in the future (Matt. 16:18) ... so that is hardly an argument that is decisive. Esp. in light of the fact that we have already exhausted every occurance of the term "church" in the gospels (only 2, both in Matthew).
I have to go back to the indwelling of the HS as the distinctive mark of the NT believer. "He will be with you ... and will be in you ... forever." That didn't happen until Pentecost.
Like I said ... if you could loose eternal life, its not eternal. You seem to be arguing that someone could have eternal life, then the next minute they dont, then they can have it again, then loose it again.
Since John tells us that he wrote the letter ... so we would know ... perhaps you should read the letter and see what he mentions ...
For example ... he mentions:
If we say we have fellowship with Him, yet walk in darkness
This is how we know we have come to know Him, by keeping His commandments
He who is born of God does not continue in sin
This is how we know that we remain in Him and He in us; He has given assurance to us from His Spirit
etc. etc. Test yourself to see whether you are in the faith.
From my post #10: Okay let's clear one thing up right off the bat: No one is saved or damned until the moment of death. Up until then no one knows for certain.
No one knows till they hear; "Well done good and faithful servant".
You never answered this question: Tell me where is Judas now?
There are conditionals that your side likes to ignore. You can know you are in a state of grace if you are living like the Scripture tells you. It is true that those who will be saved will be, but it is presumption to assume that set of people must include you.
You know it’s you if you live it, not because you have “assurance” from an intellectual reading of the Bible that you can’t fail.
you, my friend, have made the best case :) LOL
Hell.
Are you really going to argue that Judas was saved and then lost it?
Actually according to your criteria he should be in Heaven.
Tell me EXACTLY What criteria he was lacking?
He certainly believed in Jesus. He participated in the baptism of others so he must have been baptized himself. Other than the transfiguration and Resurrection what miracles wasn't he a witness and testimony to?
Lk 16:16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it."
We are recipients of the New Covenant's greater revelation compared to the Jews whose trust in God was reckoned to them as righteousness. We, more timely born, are able to believe in something the world has already seen, namely Jesus Christ, His death and propitiation for the sins of all. Jews were promised a Messiah, but did not know, nor were then partakers of the salvation which would only unfold later. Believing Christians do partake of the Gospel's salvation message, but since that Pentecost, none (to our knowledge) have experienced the promised heavenly-body ressurrection.
Does the Bible say Christ died and paid for the sins of only those who believed after that Pentecost following His death and resurrection? No. To wit, 1 Peter 3:18ff:
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient
(Emphases are mine.)
HF
Repent and believe the gospel.
He certainly believed in Jesus.
So do the demons ... they didnt repent either.
He participated in the baptism of others so he must have been baptized himself.
Not sure how you get there ... Judas participated in the baptism of others ... how is that evidence that he was baptized, not to mention saved?
Other than the transfiguration and Resurrection what miracles wasn't he a witness and testimony to?
What are you arguing here? That because he SAW the miracles that Jesus did that he must have been saved?
Can you point to anything that suggests that Judas ever believed in Christ as the Messiah, that he ever repented and believed in Him or demonstrated that he lived under His Lordship? I can list all kinds of evidence that he didnt.
Judas is the perfect example of a false convert. Someone who claims to believe, who plays the part, who knows what to say, who can converse the faith with other people ... but were never regenerated ... because they have never done the one thing that Jesus requires of them ...
Sorry take it up with the other evangelicals.
So your evidence that Judas was saved is ... ?
The "saving" of the elect happens at the return of Christ:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
To be "saved" means that we won't die. People die.
1Ti 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
1Ti 6:14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
1Ti 6:15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
Christ alone is immortal. The gift of God is ETERNAL life:
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Those who are Christ's are guaranteed eternal life at his return. But until then those who are alive are subject death and those who are dead are buried in the ground.
What is the History of Your Church?
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To paraphrase our former Secretary of State HRC “What difference at this point does it make!?”
Whether the Church started with the descent of the Holy Spirit, the pronouncement of “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church” or when Jesus found his very first followers. I don’t think it matters very much. The important thing is that it did get started and flourishes today.
Next weeks great theological conundrum - Just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Secondary discussion, are they seraphim or cherubim. Discuss
Too bad only two of the sacraments are practiced by 33,000 sects scattered outside of the Church.
The salvation Jesus brought to the world is faith in his death, burial, and resurrection. 1 Cor. 15:1-4, says that is the gospel. His death, burial, and resurrection is replicated in us by repentance, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and the infilling of the Spirit, Acts 2:38.
Baptism is identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, Rom. 6:1-5, “buried with him in baptism,” Col. 2:12. The old man is no more, he is dead with Christ, and buried. The new man receives resurrection power of the Spirit to walk in newness of life. Regeneration, in other words, John 3:3-8, through the Spirit, Rom. 8:11.
First, faith in Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection, then obedience of faith, replicating his death, burial, and resurrection in our lives.
The application of all this can hardly be before Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection...before the Spirit had come at Pentecost when baptism into Christ, and the infilling of the Spirit was first experienced.
So, to answer your question, the church began at Pentecost, not before.
They have come over later.
There were large Jewish communities who had turned Christian in Rome. St. Peter preached to them.
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