Posted on 02/05/2013 6:54:39 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
Many saw Jesus ascend into heaven on the Mount. Before this, Jesus told them to tarry in Jerusalem where they would be endued with power. Not many days afterwards, on the Day of Pentecost, tongues of fire appeared above those who had assembled together, and they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.
Now, a question that I have asked more than one person is this: were those who spake with tongues saved (believers) before the Day of Pentecost or before the moment they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance?
If these believers were already saved before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, then this means that one does not have to speak in tongues in order to go to heaven.
Secondly, this means that their speaking in tongues was a separate, subsequent, distinct act from them becoming part of the body of Christ, as they were already saved - believers (and thus a part of and the formers of the body) - before the Day of Pentecost, and before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.
Third, this means that the body of Christ (made up of believers) was already formed before the Day of Pentecost.
Again, were they already saved before the Day of Pentecost? It seems to boil down to that question...
Or were they saved (believers) and thus the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12-13) was in some nebulous form - formed, but yet not formed. ???? Wouldn’t make sense...
BTW, with all of the aforementioned in mind, I see no evidence that the Body of Christ (made up of believers) was somehow “born” on the Day of Pentecost.
Please let us experience Ash Wednesday, Lent, Holy Week, the Triduum and Easter before we get to Pentecost.
Read the account in Acts.......3000 were converted that day — they had not been believers.
Do you honestly believe anyone could know the answer to this?
Ash Wednesday, etc, - they can all be discussed at any time. Any time is a good time to discuss the Word of God.
Secondly, I am speaking of Acts chapter 2:4 (what is recorded in Acts - that Jesus spake before Acts 2:4), and the events that occured before the Apostle Peter preached and 3000 were converted.
Again, were Peter and those who had assemebled together - were they saved before the Day of Pentecost? Were they already believers before they spake with other tongues, or did they all get saved (and thus form the body of Christ) 5 hours, 5 minutes or even 5 seconds before they spake with tongues?
Ash Wednesday, etc, - they can all be discussed at any time. Any time is a good time to discuss the Word of God.
Secondly, I am speaking of Acts chapter 2:4 (what is recorded in Acts - that Jesus spake before Acts 2:4), and the events that occured before the Apostle Peter preached and 3000 were converted.
Again, were Peter and those who had assemebled together - were they saved before the Day of Pentecost? Were they already believers before they spake with other tongues, or did they all get saved (and thus form the body of Christ) 5 hours, 5 minutes or even 5 seconds before they spake with tongues?
And the people who listened to the apostles preach were from many countries. Each heard the apostles in their own language. The people converted on Pentecost were not the same as the apostles and a few other believers in the Upper Room when tongues of fire came to rest over them, and people assembled outside of the building because they heard a mighty wind — the Holy Spirit.
PS. Keeping topics timely helps everyone, but of course, anything can be posted at anytime.
The sins of mankind (thus, all were “saved”) were forgiven on Good Friday.
Jesus, Himself made the pronouncement: “It is finished.”
Yes.
Jesus said that they (the believers) would be endued with power from on high, and told them to tarry in Jerusalem to await the promise of the Father. They saw Jesus ascend on the Mount... After this, they went to Jerusalem and met regularly in the temple and praised God.
Obviously, they were believers that Jesus was the risen savior. Ergo they were believers (and thus saved). Ergo Sum, the body of Christ was already formed before the Day of Pentecost arrived. They Body of Christ therefore was not born on the Day of Pentecost. This is the inescapable conclusion...
You are trying to put the Protestant idea of being saved into Pentecost.
The Apostles, as are all Catholics, were saved with the Baptism. Whether it was of water and the spirit, a Baptism of Desire like the good thief on the Cross or a Baptism of Blood like the martyrs.
We must account for our deeds each day. Once saved/always saved is not sound doctrine in the Catholic Church. We are all sinners — so once saved/always saved doesn’t work.
Straw Man on your part.
I am not putting “the Protestant idea” into anything. /roll eyes. You are the one divisively separating this into Protestant/Catholic.
Pentecost did not save them. They were already saved before the Day of Pentecost. Speaking with tongues did not save them. Being baptized in water did not save them (a Church of Christ belief). Believing in Jesus saved them.
Romans 10:9-10 “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Period.
After Peter's speech explaining what was happening “about three thousand souls were added”, became believers also.
So obviously the ability to speak in tongues was a gift to serve a practical purpose at the moment and not a requirement of salvation.
The Body of Christ is comprised of all believers Yahweh has taken to Himself over all of the history of mankind. Thus, Abraham will be there, Moses, David, etc. and none of them were gifted with the ability to speak in foreign tongues. That particular gift served the purpose of shocking the public audience, but has no intrinsic value in itself.
But, as expected, you are getting those time-travel Catholics claiming the Apostles were themselves “Catholics”. Such nonsense is beyond absurd, but typical of that anthropocentric religious cult. The Apostles were believing Jews who recognized Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah of Israel. Rome was (and still is) stuck in paganism.
Thus, the body of Christ was already formed before the Day of Pentecost, as those who assembled together on the Day of Pentecost were already believers that Jesus was the messiah and the risen and ascended savior and had accepted Him for salvation of their souls. Thus, the body of Christ was already born before the Day of Pentecost. The body of Christ was already formed...
And thus, their speaking with other tongues on the Day of Pentecost was a distinct act, subsequent to their salvation.
The formation of the Body of Christ, then, took place and had taken place before they spake with other tongues.
Thus Baptists are incorrect that the Body of Christ was formed or born on the Day of Pentecost.
The Body of Christ was already in existence before they spake with tongues and before the Day of Pentecost even.
No strawman. I speak the truth.
“Unless you eat my Body and drink my Blood you shall not have life everlasting.”
Gospel of John: Discourse on the Bread of Life.
If you knew, why did you ask?
And so it would seem that we are in agreement that Baptists (and some others) are incorrect when they say that the body of Christ was formed or born on the Day of Pentecost.
The church, the body of Christ is made up of believers. We know that at least 120 were believers as at least that many saw Jesus ascend into heaven, had accepted Him as messiah, Lord and risen savior days before the Day of Pentecost.
Thus even before the assembled believers spake with tongues on the Day of Pentecost, and even before the 3000 were saved, the body of Christ was already formed, already born and already in existence.
Thus, what occured to the Apstles, disciples and those assembled together in Acts 2:4 (at least 120) was a subsequent, distinct act to their salvation.
They were not baptized into the body of Christ on the day of Pentecost. The Body of Christ wasn’t formed or born on the Day of Pentecost. They were already baptized into the body of Christ, were believers, were saved, and formed the body of Christ BEFORE Acts 2:4.
Baptism is commanded by Christ, as a public show of your faith, a symbolic ‘death’ and ‘burial’ (immersion) and subsequent resurrection of the ‘New Creation’.
The thief on the cross was not baptized, yet Jesus said he would be with Him in paradise - THAT DAY.
I can show you scripture supporting the idea/doctrine that once you are saved/born again, you are Saved, final answer.
‘No man can pluck you from my hand’. No one, even your self.
‘Depart from me, you worker of iniquity. I never knew you.’ Notice the NEVER. Jesus didn’t say, ‘I knew you once, but you went away.’ Nor did He say “Depart, I didn’t know you long enough.’
‘That whosoever believes on Him shall have ETERNAL life.’
No one, not even Mother Theresa, can EARN Heaven on being good enough, Not Possible. We are saved by faith and THAT a gift from God, not of ourselves.
So, if we can do NOTHING to EARN it, what can we possibly do to KEEP it? It is a gift, and as far as I can tell God is no ‘Indian Giver’.
And for the argument that once saved-always saved opens the door to sinful living, that is false. Paul addressed that - Shall we sin so that Grace can abound? Heaven forbid!
A saved person, truly saved, will not willfully sin without the Holy Spirit ‘eating your lunch’.
Can you show me scripture showing that the gift of salvation can be lost?
Just my 2 cents
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