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Six helpful resources for those seeking an evangelical Christian perspective on homosexuality
lsn ^ | Peter Saunders

Posted on 01/25/2013 11:12:27 PM PST by Morgana

Because of the bias of the liberal press, Steve Chalke’s recent endorsement of permanent gay partnerships and the extreme unorthodox views of the ‘Accepting Evangelicals’ group, to which he belongs, have had an unhelpfully disproportionate amount of media coverage.

Many Christians are understandably confused.

I received this letter this week which I think is not an atypical experience.

I am publishing it anonymously with permission and have removed the name of the church.

‘My husband and I worship at a leading conservative evangelical Anglican church and we value the teaching we receive there. Our adult children come from different angles, one from a traditional evangelical church in London, the other from a more liberal Christian background. The recent Steve Chalke article will highlight the differences in our views. I have tried to find support for the evangelical views to enable us to discuss this from an informed evangelical point of view. Your blog has been useful but I wonder if you have any further areas you could direct us to? I would appreciate any help you can offer.’

So, here are some articles and resources that I hope are helpful (each title is hyperlinked)

1.A battle I face

Vaughan Roberts is Rector of St Ebbes Church in Oxford and a popular Christian author and conference speaker with an international ministry. He has also struggled personally with feelings of same-sex attraction. This testimony was published in Evangelicals Now last year and is clear, biblical, passionate and pastoral.

2.How can the Gospel be good news to gays?

Sam Alberry is associate pastor at St Mary’s Church in Maidenhead. This brief article is clear and compassionate taking a firm biblical stance on the issue but arguing that people with homosexual orientation need more grace and not less.

3.The Bible and Homosexuality

Greg Downes is theologian in residence at Christianity Magazine. This article which unpacks a traditional evangelical understanding of homosexuality appeared initially as part of a head to head with Steve Chalke but it has had very little publicity. It is an excellent overview of the main Scriptures and links to a longer article going into more detail.

4.Biblical and pastoral responses to homosexuality

This new book, published last summer by the Evangelical Alliance gives ten affirmations clearly setting out EA’s position on the subject. In explaining these affirmations it reviews biblical and scientific material and explores the pastoral outworking of an evangelical position. It will especially be of help to church leaders and pastoral workers as well as those with same-sex attraction seeking to live faithfully as Christian disciples.

5.Unwanted same sex attraction

This booklet was published just over a year ago by Christian Medical Fellowship and is jointly written by an evangelical theologian and a professor in psychiatry. It sets out a framework for Christian ministry among people with same-sex attraction which is psychologically rigorous, theologically orthodox and pastorally sensitive.

6.Homosexuality

This is an article in the CMF File series which gives a basic overview of the subject of homosexuality from both a Christian and Medical perspective. Although I wrote it ten years ago before the Equality Act most of the material is still very much up to date. It is available in photocopiable pdf format so makes a useful handout.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: christians; evangelicals; homosexualagenda; religion; sin
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1 posted on 01/25/2013 11:12:41 PM PST by Morgana
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To: All

Why is there even a controversy?

For those who really are Christians, all one has to do is open the Bible and read it.

Homosexuality is a sin.

Period.

God doesn’t debate.


2 posted on 01/25/2013 11:20:38 PM PST by Cindy
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To: Cindy

AMEN!!!!!!!


3 posted on 01/25/2013 11:23:50 PM PST by Bradís Gramma (Psalm 83)
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To: Cindy

God does not debate but libs sure do. If they can twist something in the Bible to make it fit their agenda you know they will.


4 posted on 01/25/2013 11:26:42 PM PST by Morgana
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To: Cindy

“Many Christians are understandably confused.”

Nope, we ain’t confused. The author of this satanic article is the one who is confused.


5 posted on 01/25/2013 11:27:30 PM PST by max americana (Make the world a better place by punching a liberal in the face)
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To: Morgana
There's NO confusion.
The Bible is VERY CLEAR.

Those who support homosexuals are against our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ.
These anti Christ people only bring destruction on us ALL.
I have NO sympathy for homosexuals!

Homosexuality is a "Mark" of disobedience.
Someone once asked The answer is in the definition of "REPROBATE". And the reason"why" is given in the Bible.

God has a cure for homosexuals.
6 posted on 01/25/2013 11:28:52 PM PST by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Morgana

Here’s the deal. Same-sex attraction is really no different than a slew of other temptations that are a normal part of human life. We all are tempted to sin. We all sin. A homosexual is no worse a sinner than a fornicator, a liar, an addict, or a thief.

It’s foolish to look down on homosexuals when one’s own life is full of sin. Fornication, for example, is rampant even in our churches. Yet, a fornicator is no worse than a sodomite from a sin perspective.

According to the Bible, there is only one way to erase sin. We have to believe in Christ and repent of our sins. If someone is truly sorry for what they’ve done, then they’ll try not to repeat the sin. We may fall short from time to time. We’ll certainly be tempted, and the temptation usually come in the same way where we were once weak. Nevertheless, a person who has repented and had their sins erased will no longer be slaves to sin.

The problem with homosexuality is not same-sex attraction itself. The problem with homosexuality is denying it’s wrong, refusing to repent, and giving in to the temptation. Churches who say it’s OK to be an unrepentent homosexual are apostate. They are evil, worse than those who are ignorant of the true, and I’d hate to be in their shoes when they stand before Christ.

So that pretty much sums it up. Repent and make peace with God.


7 posted on 01/25/2013 11:32:14 PM PST by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: max americana
a leading conservative evangelical Anglican church

I'm confused. Do they have those, is there such a thing?

8 posted on 01/25/2013 11:38:15 PM PST by ansel12 (Cruz said "conservatives trust Sarah Palin that if she says this guy is a conservative, that he is")
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To: ansel12

“a leading conservative evangelical Anglican church”

In a liberal’s mind, everything is magical.


9 posted on 01/25/2013 11:47:51 PM PST by max americana (Make the world a better place by punching a liberal in the face)
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To: max americana

I liked that, “magical” was a good description.


10 posted on 01/26/2013 12:08:10 AM PST by ansel12 (Cruz said "conservatives trust Sarah Palin that if she says this guy is a conservative, that he is")
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To: Morgana
(Reposted with links:)

So, here are some articles and resources that I hope are helpful (each title is hyperlinked)

1.A battle I face

Vaughan Roberts is Rector of St Ebbes Church in Oxford and a popular Christian author and conference speaker with an international ministry. He has also struggled personally with feelings of same-sex attraction. This testimony was published in Evangelicals Now last year and is clear, biblical, passionate and pastoral.

2.How can the Gospel be good news to gays?

Sam Alberry is associate pastor at St Mary’s Church in Maidenhead. This brief article is clear and compassionate taking a firm biblical stance on the issue but arguing that people with homosexual orientation need more grace and not less.

3.The Bible and Homosexuality

Greg Downes is theologian in residence at Christianity Magazine. This article which unpacks a traditional evangelical understanding of homosexuality appeared initially as part of a head to head with Steve Chalke but it has had very little publicity. It is an excellent overview of the main Scriptures and links to a longer article going into more detail.

4.Biblical and pastoral responses to homosexuality

This new book, published last summer by the Evangelical Alliance gives ten affirmations clearly setting out EA’s position on the subject. In explaining these affirmations it reviews biblical and scientific material and explores the pastoral outworking of an evangelical position. It will especially be of help to church leaders and pastoral workers as well as those with same-sex attraction seeking to live faithfully as Christian disciples.

5.Unwanted same sex attraction

This booklet was published just over a year ago by Christian Medical Fellowship and is jointly written by an evangelical theologian and a professor in psychiatry. It sets out a framework for Christian ministry among people with same-sex attraction which is psychologically rigorous, theologically orthodox and pastorally sensitive.

6.Homosexuality

This is an article in the CMF File series which gives a basic overview of the subject of homosexuality from both a Christian and Medical perspective. Although I wrote it ten years ago before the Equality Act most of the material is still very much up to date. It is available in photocopiable pdf format so makes a useful handout.

Reprinted with permission from Christian Medical Comment. http://pjsaunders.blogspot.ca/


11 posted on 01/26/2013 12:20:40 AM PST by iowamark
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To: Yosemitest

I think that deep-down inside they know they’re wrong and that’s one reason they’re angry.


12 posted on 01/26/2013 12:50:02 AM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Causing trouble since 1976)
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN
Read Romans 1:16-32 closely.
Our Heavenly Father gave them many chances to change and repent.
But they chose not to.
They went through three rebellions before God gave them over to a "REPROBATE MIND".
The quicker they are dispatched, the better off we'll be.
13 posted on 01/26/2013 1:04:05 AM PST by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Morgana
Many Christians are understandably confused.

Sorry but it's not understandable.

14 posted on 01/26/2013 3:18:00 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: CitizenUSA; Morgana
A homosexual is no worse a sinner than a fornicator, a liar, an addict, or a thief.

Actually, a careful study of scripture shows there are degrees of sin as people fall deeper and deeper into depravity. Homosexuality is just about at the end of the scale. So what we're seeing should alarm us. It's not that the sin of homosexuality is any worst than lying. But it's worst in the sense that we are falling farther away from God.

Lying is like taking a canary into a coal mine and it just sits there quietly. Homosexuality is like having the canary drop over dead. It should be a sign to us that things are not good and God's wrath isn't far behind.

15 posted on 01/26/2013 3:29:16 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: Morgana

“Many Christians are understandably confused.”

Real Christians are not confused at ALL. “Small-c” christians might be, but real Christians are not.


16 posted on 01/26/2013 3:33:03 AM PST by MayflowerMadam
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To: Morgana

We’re all sinners, every last one of us. Those who have repented of their sin, believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and asked for forgiveness, are forgiven.

There is all manner of sin that is sexual in nature. Outside of marriage, between a man and a woman, you are committing sin by engaging in it. This includes homosexuality. Repent of it, do not engage in it, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness. You will be forgiven.

Repentance means a sincere ongoing attempt to avoid sin, and to strongly regret committing it. We are sinners by our very physical natures, since the fall of man. Therefore, we will experience failures on occasion. Repent of it, strongly regret it, lift yourself upright and keep going on a righteous path. It gets easier as you go along, eventually.

That’s how it works.


17 posted on 01/26/2013 3:45:59 AM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: Cindy

Right. In the Old Testament, it is declared a sin in the law. New Testament affirms it. Christ kept the whole law perfectly in order to qualify to shed grace on us; that means he also kept the law regarding homosexuality. - The error all these bleeding heart liberal “clergy” are making is in teaching that it is just OKAY to continue on, and even flaunt, homosexuality AFTER repentance and receiving Christ’s grace. - That’s like claiming that it’s just okay to continue murdering after a murderer’s repentance and receiving grace.


18 posted on 01/26/2013 3:54:09 AM PST by Twinkie (JOHN 3:16)
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To: HarleyD

I agree homosexuality is pretty depraved, but I think all sorts of sin will abound as the world falls. We’re heading toward Sodom and Gomorrah where evil no longer hides. It walks proudly down the street in broad daylight. That’s how bad it’s ultimately going to get, because there is literally no evil that man won’t do without God.

That said, Christ’s forgiveness applies to repentent homosexuals as well as other sinners. All they have to do is accept Christ’s gift.


19 posted on 01/26/2013 4:32:39 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: Twinkie
1 Corinthians 6: "...Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality , 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you.
20 posted on 01/26/2013 4:43:04 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: Morgana

Wanna know just how destructive sodomy is on a society? When God blessed Israel with a civil/criminal code, He made sodomy a capital crime.

Our purpose should not be to make every sin a crime. That would be both oppressive and futile. But if we’re discussing what legislation would be best for our nation, we might be wise to learn something from a good example.


21 posted on 01/26/2013 5:55:49 AM PST by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: HarleyD

“Sorry but it’s not understandable.”

The context of why he’s saying it is understandable is that recently the leader of a very large and influential evangelical/baptist church called Steve Chalke has come out in favour of same-sex “marriage.”

This has caused great consternation amongst British evangelicals who looked up to him as having one of those “model” ministries.

I agree with you that the confusion should not be understandable at all for anybody who believes the Bible is the Word of God, but unfortunately when influential pastors like Chalke clothe their positions in apparently biblical principles it can do great damage to many people’s faith.


22 posted on 01/26/2013 5:57:11 AM PST by Deacon Augustine
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To: CitizenUSA
As Christians we are charged to hate the sin and love the sinner....sadly some Christians don’t practice that!!!
23 posted on 01/26/2013 6:00:37 AM PST by ontap
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To: CitizenUSA

“It’s foolish to look down on homosexuals when one’s own life is full of sin.”

What a great post - thank you.

My wife and I went to an Exodus regional conference a year or so ago - we wanted to learn about (and from) those affected by homosexuality so our church would be better prepared to minister to the coming tsunami of sexual sin issues in the church.

I have been involved in a host of healing ministries over the years - but I’ve never fellowshipped with believers that had such a huge gratitude for what thier saviour has done for them - I was awestruck - and would recommend any serious Chrsitian to attend one.


24 posted on 01/26/2013 6:20:45 AM PST by Psalm 73 ("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is the War Room".)
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To: CitizenUSA

Well said. Homosexuality is more subjectively repulsive to most people than is fornication, but sexual sin is sexual sin.


25 posted on 01/26/2013 7:01:13 AM PST by jagusafr (the American Trinity (Liberty, In G0D We Trust, E Pluribus Unum))
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To: Morgana

Ravi Zakarias gives a college student a very good answer (see on youtube) to this question. He also states that the Bible is firm, but God does not hate these people, but wants to “love them to salvation”. That should be our approach, as believers, to love them and accept them as God’s creation, like we would anyone else, but to never condone the activity. Speak or admonish in love and concern, never judgmentally. When given an opportunity, warn them of the day of judgment when their sin will keep them from God’s eternal presence.


26 posted on 01/26/2013 7:07:51 AM PST by Shery (in APO Land)
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To: Deacon Augustine
Martin Luther:
”Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly for he is victorious over sin, death, and the world.”
“As long as we are here in this world we have to sin. This life is not a dwelling place of righteousness”

”No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day.”

Either Luther was wrong about “Faith Alone” or he wasn’t. If Faith Alone is correct, telling people they have to repent and stop sinning contradicts that doctrine. Stopping their favorite sin is the hardest work a lot of people will ever do and very definitely work the same as obeying Christ and helping the poor is work. Thousands of books and probably millions of sermons have decried anything someone is expected to do in addition to accepting and having faith in Christ as a “works salvation” and not only unnecessary, but a heresy.

Those who preach “Faith Alone” and accuse others of believing in "works salvation" have painted themselves into a corner.

The confusion is due to the very nature of what Evangelicals preach. If “Faith Alone” is correct, then those who preach and teach that doctrine have to accept that “Faith Alone” really means Alone and therefore it’s not even possible for someone to be apostate. In fact, if you believe someone can even be apostate after they've accepted Christ, you're denying the fundamentals of the doctrine of, “Faith Alone”, and the doctrine of, “Once Saved, Always Saved” as well.

If, on the other hand, “Faith Alone” is an error, those who now preach that doctrine need to repent for preaching error and stop preaching it just like those who are homosexual need to repent for their sin of homosexual behavior and stop the behavior.

Call a required work “repentance” all you like, but that doesn’t change the fact that if it’s required in addition to faith in Christ the doctrine of “Faith Alone” is an error that leads people astray.

27 posted on 01/26/2013 7:40:43 AM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: CitizenUSA

thank you for your posts on this topic
God is good

The problem is ‘pride’
How soon until we see a thief,greed,swindler,anger,envy,jealousy or hate ‘pride’ parade


28 posted on 01/26/2013 7:49:53 AM PST by paradoxical
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To: jagusafr

This is a very difficult topic. I appreciate the thought, study and prayer that are obvious in your statement.

On one hand we should not be comfortable with sin- be that lust, adultery (the divorce rate in the Church is the same as in the world), greed (the prosperity gospel), hate, gossip, or any other sin.

Yet we live in a world filled with sin. Do we let the divorced sit with us on Sunday? If not, we will exclude about 50% of our country.

Christ died for everyone. In good conscience I can not block someone who is divorced from Christ.

Likewise, maybe 3 to 5% of the world is homosexual. I think that for some it may be a choice, for others I think they were just born that way. How do we deal, in the love of Christ, with this group?

I am not smart enough to judge, nor have I been called to do so. I think my duty is to tell them that Jesus died for them, and loves them. Let God take it from there. I need to, the best I can (and it isn’t easy), show them love, not judgement. The challenge is to balance Christ’s love so that it is not seen as an endorsement of their behaviors.


29 posted on 01/26/2013 7:56:59 AM PST by AlbertWang
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To: HarleyD

It’s “understandable” in the same way that abortion is “complicated”—only if you’re trying to have it both ways.


30 posted on 01/26/2013 8:15:40 AM PST by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: AlbertWang

You wrote: “This is a very difficult topic...The challenge is to balance Christ’s love so that it is not seen as an endorsement of their behaviors.”

True.

You may find this enlightening:

Dennis Prager: “ The only holy sex in Judeo-Christian religions is between a husband and wife. All other sex is unholy. But not necessarily immoral. ....many religious people blur the distinction by labeling unholy actions immoral actions. And that has often given religion a bad name because thinking secular people know that some actions called immoral by the religious are not necessarily immoral.”
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2005/06/14/we_are_not_just_animals_judeo-christian_values_part_xv

People who do not believe in God or religion can surely lead ethical lives. But they cannot lead holy lives. By definition, the ideal of the holy, as understood by Judaism and Christianity and that unique amalgam known as Judeo-Christian values, needs God and religion.

Here is the best way I know of to explain holiness in Judeo-Christian religions: There is a continuum from the profane to the holy that coincides with the dual bases of human creation — the animal and the divine.

The human being can be said to be created in the image of God and in the image of animals. We are biologically animals, and we are spiritually, morally and theologically God-like (at least in our potential). God is the most holy; and animals, as helpful, loyal and lovable as many are, are at the opposite end of the holiness continuum. This is in no way an insult to animals. Saying dogs and lions are not holy is no more degrading to them than saying men are not women or women are not men. That is how they are created.

There is actually a secular way to understand this. If we saw a person eating food with his face in a bowl, we would think, “He eats like a pig” or “He eats like an animal.” That is an insult to a person — because humans are supposed to elevate their behavior above the animal (this is a goal of Judeo-Christian and just about every other major religious tradition). But it is no insult to an animal. When an animal eats face-first out of a bowl, we hardly think ill of it; but when a person mimics animal behavior, we do think lower of that person. So, even non-religious society has imbibed some of the view that acting like an animal is not how a human being should generally act.

Now, to better understand this, one needs to appreciate that holiness is not a moral category. There is nothing immoral in eating with one’s face inside a bowl. It is unholy to do so, but not immoral or unethical.

It is crucial to understand the difference between the moral and the holy.

Even many religious people blur the distinction by labeling unholy actions immoral actions. And that has often given religion a bad name because thinking secular people know that some actions called immoral by the religious are not necessarily immoral.

This is particularly true in the sexual arena, where many religious people characterize unholy behavior as immoral behavior — so much so that the very word “immoral” has come to be equated with sexual sin.

Much consensual adult behavior that Judeo-Christian values would prohibit is unholy rather than immoral. For example, non-marital sex between consenting adults violates the Judeo-Christian code of holiness, but not necessarily its code of morality (if there were coercion or trickery, it would, of course, be immoral). The only holy sex in Judeo-Christian religions is between a husband and wife. All other sex is unholy. But not necessarily immoral.

All immoral actions — such as stealing and murder — are, of course, unholy. But not all unholy actions (like eating with one’s face in a bowl) are immoral.

Nevertheless, just because holy and moral are not identical does not mean the holy is not monumentally significant. Elevating human behavior above the animal and toward the divine is one of the greatest achievements humans can accomplish. If we really did behave like animals in the sexual arena (like the famous bunny rabbit, for example), society would eventually collapse.

Speech is another example. In our increasingly secular world, fewer and fewer attempts are made by people to elevate their speech. That is why public cursing is now much more prevalent. In most ballparks and stadiums, one hears language shouted out that would have been unimaginable a generation ago. Sanctifying speech is another religious value; it is not a secular value. Whenever I see a vehicle with an obscene bumper sticker, I am sure of only one thing: The owner of that vehicle does not regularly attend religious services.

The consequences of the death of the holy are ubiquitous. Secular Europe is far readier to feature nudity on public television than is Judeo-Christian America, and it is far more accepting of people walking around nude in public at beaches. The Judeo-Christian problem with public nudity among consenting adults at a beach or even at a nudist colony is not that these people are necessarily acting immorally (they may not be touching one another or even sexually arousing each other); it is that they are acting like animals. Clothing gives human beings dignity; it elevates them above the animals whose genitals are always uncovered (the first thing God made for man and woman is clothing).

And that is what the Judeo-Christian value system ultimately yearns for — the elevation of human conduct to the God-like, rather than allowing us to behave like fellow animals.

<><><><>

Dennis Prager: “...Indeed, Judaism may be said to have invented the notion of homosexuality, for in the ancient world sexuality was not divided between heterosexuality and homosexuality. ...”

HERE:

Judaism’s Sexual Revolution: Why Judaism (and then Christianity) Rejected Homosexuality
CERC ^ | DENNIS PRAGER
http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2/PragerHomosexuality.shtml

bttt


31 posted on 01/26/2013 8:17:39 AM PST by Matchett-PI (You know how to stop abortion? Require that each one occur with a gun -Rush Limbaugh)
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To: Morgana

Whatever homosexuality may be, nature/nurture or a soul trap designed by Satan himself, do we have a responsibility to help them and support those who help them turn away from what separates them from God?


32 posted on 01/26/2013 10:10:54 AM PST by GBA (Here in the Matrix, life is but a dream.)
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To: iowamark

thanks..I don’t know why but can never get links to post.


33 posted on 01/26/2013 10:55:10 AM PST by Morgana
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To: Rashputin

When you have faith in something, you act on that faith. I think that’s the point the Bible makes. Yes. You are saved by faith alone, but your works are proof of your changed heart. I you say you have faith and continue in the same sins as before, then you don’t really believe. Make sense?

BTW, I’m not saying Christians are without sin. We still continue to fall short, but we shouldn’t be wallowing in it. I think this is what Christ meant when he washed the disciples’ feet. When Peter said he wanted his whole body washed (don’t you just love that guy), Christ said He only needed his feet cleaned. I think that symbolizes the Christian walk. We no longer need a total cleansing like the first time when all those past sins were wiped clean. We only need touch ups.


34 posted on 01/26/2013 11:01:01 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: Rashputin

“Call a required work “repentance” all you like, but that doesn’t change the fact that if it’s required in addition to faith in Christ the doctrine of “Faith Alone” is an error that leads people astray.”

Naturally I believe that “sola fide” is an error, but I have yet to meet an evangelical who has tried to excuse sin on the basis that faith alone is required for salvation.

Maybe your experience is different?


35 posted on 01/26/2013 11:15:41 AM PST by Deacon Augustine
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To: CitizenUSA
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Matthew 7:16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles ?
Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire.
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven : but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name ?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

James 2:17 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.
James 2:18 But some man will say : Thou hast faith, and I have works : shew me thy faith without works ; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well : the devils also believe and tremble.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?
James 2:22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect?
James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.
James 2:24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
James 2:25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?
James 2:26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.

I accept the Scriptures as my authority on Salvtion, not Martin Luther, but apparently some folks prefer Luther to the Apostles.

36 posted on 01/26/2013 11:26:41 AM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Deacon Augustine
Maybe your experience is different?

Yes it is and quite recently on this very same topic.

It seems like a great many people believe they're under no obligation to Christ in any way as long as they've made a public confession of their faith in Christ. Somewhere along the line repentance that includes a change of behavior has become just another one of the "false doctrines" those "works salvation" people preach.

That's why I say I think they've painted themselves into a corner whether they realize it yet or not.

Regards

37 posted on 01/26/2013 12:35:17 PM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Yosemitest

I have no reason to read Romans because I’m not a Christian.

I’m a Noahide,just like Zionist Conspirator.


38 posted on 01/26/2013 2:32:46 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Causing trouble since 1976)
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To: CitizenUSA

“The problem with homosexuality is denying it’s wrong, refusing to repent, and giving in to the temptation. Churches who say it’s OK to be an unrepentent homosexual are apostate. They are evil, worse than those who are ignorant of the true, and I’d hate to be in their shoes when they stand before Christ.”

I recently got banned from a christian chat room and one of the reasons they complained to me that I used use the word “gay” instead of “homosexual”. They also thought gay marriage was okay in the church. They said “we should love them as Jesus did”. Yea I don’t recall that Jesus who held to Hebrew customs would have gone for gay marriage. /sarc. There was just no telling these so called christians what the bible said on homosexuality because they thought it was just all old testament law. For the record, this site was a mixture of all christans mostly non denomiational.


39 posted on 01/26/2013 2:56:39 PM PST by Morgana
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN
"Noahide" ?
Never heard of it.
Who was Noah"s spiritual leader?
40 posted on 01/26/2013 4:53:38 PM PST by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Yosemitest

http://asknoah.org/7-commandments


41 posted on 01/26/2013 5:14:12 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto
If Noah worshiped and OBEYED the LORD of the Old *(and the New) Testament, then why not follow the God Noah OBEYED?
42 posted on 01/26/2013 5:32:01 PM PST by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Rashputin

The scriptures are the only possible source of reliable information on what Christianity is about. If someone is a Christian, then they would be wise to read and follow scripture. Like you wrote, I wouldn’t trust anyone who contradicted what scripture said. The Bible is like the US Constitution. It’s plainly written.


43 posted on 01/26/2013 8:08:27 PM PST by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

Indeed. If they were really happy in their sexual behavior, they wouldn’t need everyone else to agree with them and to try to use the legal system to punish anyone who doesn’t agree with them. But deep down they know it’s sinful and ultimately self-defeating.


44 posted on 01/26/2013 10:30:04 PM PST by ReformationFan
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To: Yosemitest

G-d was Noah’s spiritual leader.

G-d made a covenant with Noah.It’s the oldest covenant for ALL mankind. There are 7 Laws for Noahides to follow and the Tanach is what Noahides and Jews go by.


45 posted on 01/26/2013 10:57:59 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Causing trouble since 1976)
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To: Yosemitest

There is a highly detail description about Noahidism on Wikipedia.

www.wikipedia.org.


46 posted on 01/26/2013 11:02:36 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Causing trouble since 1976)
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To: ReformationFan

So many of them are on drugs.

They’ll use Meth to have longer sex sessions and to decrease their inhibitions.

If they loved themselves and had self-respect they would not subject themselves to these filthy depraved acts especially while high on drugs.

In a way I feel bad for homosexuals because they have no self-respect or self-esteem. It’s actually quite sad.

Yet the Libs keep telling them it’s OK to be gay.


47 posted on 01/26/2013 11:07:27 PM PST by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (Causing trouble since 1976)
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN
I think you should broaden your horizons.
48 posted on 01/26/2013 11:54:30 PM PST by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: Morgana

Romans 1
26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.


They gave up their natural affection, for the unnatural, it has nothing to do with believers versus non believers, it is sgainst nature itself.

Nothing to debate.


49 posted on 01/27/2013 3:32:01 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: Morgana

“The problem with homosexuality is denying it’s wrong, refusing to repent, and giving in to the temptation. Churches who say it’s OK to be an unrepentent homosexual are apostate. They are evil, worse than those who are ignorant of the true, and I’d hate to be in their shoes when they stand before Christ.”


I agree and even the ignorant in regards to the teaching of Christ has the natural instinct to know how unnatural the gay life style is, or at least they used to, and that is what Paul called it, unnatural.

Yet many people see it as nothing different than mans natural desire which we are warned we need to keep in control.

I believe the apostles said that we should obey God rather than msn, and he also told the religious leaders, you strain oat a knat and swallow a camel


50 posted on 01/27/2013 4:19:51 AM PST by ravenwolf
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