Posted on 12/25/2012 2:53:08 PM PST by entropy12
India, the birthplace of Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism, marks the birth of Jesus with a national holiday.
Indians call Christmas bara din, or the Big Day.
(Excerpt) Read more at npr.org ...
many Hindus see Buddha as an incarnation of there main god. Some in India believe that he was also incarnated as Christ. They have thousands of gods—who are re-incarnations of just a few god forces. So honoring Christ—to them—isn’t a problem. He is a force—a face of the divine. Much of his message of peace and love is in harmony with their classic belief systems.
I would think the British Empire had an influence on them, too.
I know Hindu’s. I was born as one. From what I know, Hindu’s are one of the most tolerant of other religions. Christians in India, have seldom done any atrocities. So it follows that they are respected and loved by 99% of Hindu’s. Same with Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Jews, Jains, Sikhs, Bahai’s, etc.
Of course there are always a few fanatics in every religion. Such as the Sikh who assassinated prime minister Indira Gandhi, or the Hindu who assassinated Mohandas Gandhi. But there were no mob actions against other faiths by those religions, unlike the Muslims.
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When I was young, Americans enjoyed Christmas and appreciated the teachings of Christ even if they were not Christian.
The anti-Christers have risen with the Marxists. They have used their control over education and other power structures to cleanse the American culture...which supported the moral and economic independence and legal structure of the constitution.
I can not beleive Christians put up with that. Like a boiled frog... Social Marxists are disgusting people with many useful idiots helping them, not realizing the ultimate communist trap.
Americans don’t celebrate “Christmas” or the birth of Christ. Christmas is only a ruse to actually celebrate materialism, commercialism and gluttony. It’s all about consumption, material enjoyment and excess. Nothing to do with Marxists. Christ has long been lost.
In other parts of the world Christmas is observed with austerity. They may not have Santa Claus buying them expensive gift but they have much more happiness, satisfaction and gratitude for whatever little they have.
Yeah, well, there’s been a good bit of Hindus burning Christian missionaries alive, raping nuns and schoolgirls, stripping priests naked and parading them through the streets, killing villagers who convert to Christianity etc. during the last several decades, especially since 1999.
Google for hindu violence against Christians and see what you find.
In 2011:
“As you are aware,” Dayak writes, “the 23rd of August marks the third anniversary of the killing of VHP leader Lakshmananda Saraswati in Kandhamal, in Orissa, by Maoists,” which was followed by a “ pogrom against the Christian Dalit and Tribal community of that region. That led to over 56,000 Christians homeless, almost 300 churches destroyed, more than 5,600 houses burnt. A nun and two other women were raped and many molested. The memory of that violence has scorched the psyche of our community.”
2008, New York Times, no less
NEW DELHI — At least 3,000 people, most of them Christians, are living in government-run relief camps after days of Christian-versus-Hindu violence in eastern India, government officials said.
The government said that many people were also living in the jungle without any shelter and security because of the tensions, which erupted in violence after a Hindu leader was killed Saturday. At least 10 people, most of them Christians, have been killed since.
Christian community leaders say that at least 1,000 Christian homes have been set on fire since Monday, rendering more than 5,000 people homeless.
Many of those living in the jungle were without food or water, said the Rev. Dibakar Parichha, a priest at the Roman Catholic church in Phulbani, a town in Orissa State. Father Parichha said that about 90 places of worship, including small churches and prayer halls, had been burned down. Local officials said the figure was about 20.
The violence has occurred in Kandhamal, a district in Orissa State that has a history of communal and ethnic clashes. The latest conflict started Saturday night, when unidentified armed men stormed a Hindu school in Kandhamal and killed the Hindu leader Laxmanananda Saraswati and four of his followers.
The police suspected that Maoist rebels were responsible. But Hindus blamed Christians. In the retaliatory violence, 500 houses were burned. All nine towns in the district are under a curfew, and the police have license to shoot. At least two people have been killed in violent reprisals in other districts of Orissa, including a woman who died when an orphanage was burned down.
2Co_6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM. I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE."
2Co 6:17 Therefore "COME OUT FROM AMONG THEM AND BE SEPARATE, SAYS THE LORD. DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN, AND I WILL RECEIVE YOU."
2Co 6:18 "I WILL BE A FATHER TO YOU, AND YOU SHALL BE MY SONS AND DAUGHTERS, SAYS THE LORD ALMIGHTY."
If there were ever any situation to sum up Christmas and non-Christians....this would be it.
People of the world will celebrate what ever the world celebrates.
Americans don’t celebrate “Christmas” or the birth of Christ.
The Hindi nationalist are not so tolerant. Many Christians come from the lowest caste, and many Hindus regard this as an attack on their caste system,
The Hindi nationalist are not so tolerant. Many Christians come from the lowest caste, and many Hindus regard this as an attack on their caste system,
I grew up in Western India where I never saw any such violence between Christians and Hindus. Orissa state has had lot of strife between various religious and non-religious factions. The communist rebels are/were active in that state and good at exploiting anything to their advantage. It is not exactly the most educated, urban or prosperous part of India.
I doubt you will find any strife between Hindu’s and Christians in any of the major urban areas such as New Delhi, Mumbai, Chenai, Bangalore etc. On the contrary you will discover that Christians in those areas are doing better than non-Christians. Modern Indians are nothing like centuries ago when the missionaries arrived in the country.
For example we can not really say Americans favor slavery simply because before civil war it was a common practice in many parts of US.
I am sorry you think so.
You make it sound one sided, all Hindus doing it to Christians. However there is that little line from the article you posted......
“The latest conflict started Saturday night, when unidentified armed men stormed a Hindu school in Kandhamal and killed the Hindu leader Laxmanananda Saraswati and four of his followers.”
Many Christians actually preserve their cast system practice even after being converted to Christianity. So not sure how exactly it’s is an attack on cast system.
Lot of “lowest cast” members convert under material enticement, and then reconvert back to their original religion. Easy come, easy go.
The caste system is integral to Hinduism, its polygamy. So the analogy of keeping caste is analogous to a person converting to Christianity but keeping his national customs, which might include some rituals relating to the tribal god. As far as material enticement, many A Christian lad or lass goes to college and there gives up his/her faith in order to fit into the secular world he/she finds him/herself. Much of India was converted to Islam in order to avoid the tax. Edmund Burke’s Anglo-Irish father raised him as Protestant so he would not be barred from the public service.
You don’t need to tell me about Hinduism. And no, cast system is not “integral” to Hinduism. In fact it’s got nothing to do with Hinduism. And how exactly is cast system, polygamy? I didn’t quit get that part.
The analogy of a Christian lad going to college and becoming secular “to fit in” isn’t anywhere even close to a Hindu lower cast temporarily playing Christian to get freebies and then going back to his original religion.
Secondly less then a 1/4th of India converted to Islam under intense persecution and genocide not to skip taxes. Catch up on some history.
Lastly your post still doesn’t explain how it’s an attack on cast system.
Hindus are more peaceful then most other religions, including Christianity. They turn violent only when people try to screw with their religion. It’s simple deal, if you don’t want any trouble with Hindus don’t eff with their religion. Christian missionaries often make the mistake of forgetting that lesson, something that even Muslims don’t dare to forget.
Check post #24
Well, Hinduism is more like the polytheism of the Roman world than like Islam or Christianity. I am not sure what you mean by “screwing with their religion.” They in fact have many religions.
I am not sure how you separate the caste system from Hindu polytheism. I don’t being that a particular caste will follow a particular god or philosophy, but India is divided into many nations, so to speak, in ways more complex than Europe, and religious opinion is equally complex. But diversity does not mean that toleration, as we understand the term, is the order of the day. There is a pecking order.
You have no idea about Hinduism or anything you are talking about. You are blathering nonsense.
“I am not sure how you separate the caste system from Hindu polytheism. “
I think you are not sure about anything you are talking about. Firstly Hinduism is nothing like Roman polytheism. Secondly different casts don’t have different Gods, you could say different regions have different Gods but its more complicated then that. Thirdly, cast as referenced in Hindu religious texts has a completely different context and connotation to what is commonly practiced as a form of discrimination which we know as cast system.
Hinduism, with warts and all, has been much less violent and much more tolerant then any western civilization/ religion especially Christianity. And the enormous diversity within Hinduism is a major reason why there is no one single dominant group, sect or faction that can lay righteous claim to that religion or seek to enforce it through violence as we have seen happening with Christianity and Islam all throughout history.
History bares testimony to the tolerance of Hindus. Zoroastrians escaped the Islamic persecution in Iran and fled to India, not Europe. The lost tribe of the Jews fled Middle East to seek shelter in India sometime around 8th century BC. Even early Christians fled persecution in a Syria and Eastern Roman Empire to settle in southern coast of India. You never heard about people fleeing persecution in India to settle elsewhere.
Rest my case.
you are correct. But don’t get any Hindu talking about Moslems — 1000 years of Moslems persecuting, slaughtering, raping hindus leads to a lot of bad blood...
there has been Hindu violence against Christians, but these are sporadic, and soundly condemned by even ultra-Hindu fanatics. The guy who killed the Christian missionary was given the (rare in INdia) death sentence
The lowest castes convert to Christianity yes, but most convert to Buddhism -- see Babasaheb Ambedkar
in the case of Orissa it was a combination of many things -- India has a "reservation" system -- their version of affirmative action
This was initially only for the lowest castes, the Scheduled Caste and for the tribal aborigine peoples, the Scheduled tribes
But in the 90s this was extended to various other groups (OBCs) and caused chaos because various groups called themselves OBCs to get the reservation of seats in colleges and govt jobs
What happened in Orissa is that the lowest caste converted to Christianity but, BUT, more importatntly they found the number of seats available to them reduced by the OBCS.
Also, converting to Christianity for many means access to better education so they were better primed for the reservations. So many of the members of this SC classified themselves as ST (tribal) to get the ST seats. The tribals of course didn't like this -- note that they were/are animists
So this was politicised....
A Hindu holy man was killed by communists and this ignited the Hindu-Christian violence
Only later did the Communists acknowledge that THEY killed the Hindu man...
Saraswati was killed by a communist.
Hinduism is not a religion but a meta-religion, a group of religious ideas
Modern-day hindusim does not resemble Vedic hinduism -- no one worships Indra or Varuna and the Ashwamedha horse sacrifice is practically unheard of
Hinduism changed from the meat (even beef) eating Vedics to a pacifist version post Buddhism, to then ejecting much of the plurality of Aryanic gods in favor of the Hindu "trinity" or trilok -- Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma
Now it is henotheistic with the concept of Ishwara
Even the caste system was not as inflexible in Vedic times -- Vishwamitra was not a Brahmin and neither were many "sants"
Removing the caste system -- as the King of Trivandrum did in the late 1800s is not a "killer" for Hinduism.
sorry ravager, but saying the caste system has got “nothing” to do with Hinduism is incorrect — Mani and the Brahmins coming from his head and the Shudras from his feet is part of Hindu mythology
The original Indo-european religion seems to have had two families of gods -- either inchaote or personalized gods
In the most primitive like the Baltic or Slavic or Germanic the two families of gods remained -- the Aesir and the Vanir in the Nordic legends
the more "advanced" ones put around a lot of philosophy around it -- and that was in the Indo-Iranic religions. The Indic i.e. the Vedic religion had the Asuras and the Devas -- in the earliest Veda, the Rig Veda from 2000 BC, the early gods like Varuna and Agni were called Asuras, but by the 900s Asuras were brought down to the level of "bad guys" -- not demons yet, but "sueprnatural beings who were bad not evil" -- the gods were hardly "good" either. In the Avestani, Irani world the opposite happened - the Daevas were reduced to hearth gods of the home and the Ahuras (since the "S" in Indic becomes "H" in Avestani Irani) were elevated until Zoroaster came and elevated one of the Ahuras -- Ahura Mazda to the top
In the Greek world they combined this with the Semitic god stories and you have one "family", the Olympians overthrowing another, the Titans
The Roman religion was also highly primitive -- the daevas and asuras were gods of the hearth (deva, deus, divius, divine..) that never progressed into higher philosophy unlike the Greeks or Iranis or Indians
Back to indian and you see a notable change after 700 BC when Jainism arises to 300 BC when Buddhism arises -- the old Vedic ways are thrown aside and replaced with a deeper philosophy
But Buddhism and Jainism had a tendency to stagnate thought and that's what happened after hinduism absorbed these.
India stayed running in place until the Moslems invaded
But Christianity came first in 40 AD with St. Thomas and the Asura-Deva angle got another jolt with the Asuras reduced to demons. At the same time the Dravidian gods of Shiva and Vishnu came to the fore and Vishhu absorbed many local gods and heroes to be Vishnu of the 11 incarnations.
Hindus now became almost monotheistic with the increasing separation into Vaishnavites, Shaivites etc. focusing on one god as THE god with others as emanations.
Thank you for your splendid comments.
Like you said, I have never seen in my 20 years growing up in India, Hindu mobs attacking Christians or even Muslims, UNPROVOKED. Christian missionaries arrived in 1st century and were successful in converting millions of Hindu’s to Christianity because it was mostly a peaceful process.
There is perhaps less religious violence PER CAPITA in India than other places such as Ireland, middle-east, former Soviet satellites, etc when you consider there are many millions of people of various religions living there.
“A Hindu holy man was killed by communists”
Wait, not so fast.
The connection between Maoist and Christian missionaries is actually very well known and in some cases in India that distinction between Maoist and Christians kinda gets very blurry. I have a feeling you are already aware of that fact which you may have overlooked in your haste to shift the blame from the Christians.
Sorry Cronos, The mythologies you quote from comes from lesser important texts not the Bhagat Gita, or the Shatras or the Puranas. If you talk about Christianity you would most probably be quoting from King James Bible not some obscure mythological text relating to Christianity. Same with Hinduism.
The Purushasukta of Rig Veda talks about the Varnas or Castes being various organs of a human body like a society. All parts are equally important regardless of their position. It is not a hierarchy or a pecking order. Its not a prescription for something.
And is THE ONLY mention about “Caste” in all of the Vedas and according to some scholars its a more recent insertions.
So yes “caste system” has got nothing to do with Hinduism.
...Other then that you are simply muddying the water with obscure mythologies, legends, bogus history and crackhead theories.
well, I think hindu mobs have attacked Moslems without a provokation at that time — but can you blame them considering the history?
There is a distinction and the Hindu holy man was killed by communists. The communists acknowledged this later, after the reverse violence
I wouldn't say it was all very peaceful process. The Portuguese in Goa weren't very “peaceful”. And just imagine..... early Christians were persecuted out of their own land and yet in India where they took refuge they not only practiced their faith but also converted the locals. That takes lot of balls. You think American Christians would allow Hindu refugees to settle on their land and also let them be converted to Hinduism? In today's day and age? Hindus were too peaceful.
And the Manusmriti clearly states the difference between the twice-born and the Shudras
The caste system is part of Hinduism. However, as I said above, Hinduism is not a permanently defined religion but a free-flowing meta-religion and for Hinduism to junk the caste-system may change it, but will not end Hinduism
Unless you, ravager know the co-relation between Ahuras and Daevas in the Avestan and Asuras and Devas in the Vedas, don’t make nonsensical comments.
Are you talking about Gujarat? There again Muslims started first with the train burning. Nice try. You still lose.
I am read about all of those “co-relations”. They are simply theories. Seems like you have a hard time distinguishing theories from facts.
“The four-fold order was created by Me according to the divisions of quality and work. Though I am its creator, know Me to be incapable of action or change.”
It talks about varnas based on guna (aptitude) and karma (action) not birth or heredity.
Again Bhagwad Gita has no reference Brahma's head or feet or @ss from where shudras came from.
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