Skip to comments.Difficult Days Ahead for the Church?
Posted on 11/07/2012 12:21:18 PM PST by NYer
My remarks will be brief, since this is not a political blog, and I am not a political prognosticator. The American people and process have spoken. But a few remarks based on the election results, things I think of as undeniable facts for the Church, though you are free to offer any rebuttals.
1. The strained relationship between the Catholic Church in the Democratic party will continue and the strain will likely grow. The reasons for this are that the Democratic Party is increasingly aligning itself with positions that are in direct conflict with Catholic teaching. More of this in the following points.
2. Largely unrestricted abortion will continue unabated, as will funding for organizations such as Planned Parenthood, the chief provider of abortion in this country. Possible Supreme Court nominations will also feature pro-choice jurists. Likewise many Circuit and other Federal District Court judges will continue to be appointed who favor largely unrestricted abortion.
3. The homosexual agenda will continue to grow and receive increasing legal recognition and protection. This includes not only gay “marriage” but also, other issues in the Gay agenda such as adoption, and the general insistence that the Gay lifestyle be promoted in schools and other public settings. This will require Church opposition and generally embroil us in many public disputes. This may have continued even with a Romney win, but there will be fewer political hurdles for such agendas and the pace will be quicker.
4. The HHS mandate moves forward, untouched. Our religious liberty is in greater jeopardy. We’ll have to meet the administration in court. And while the legal basis for our grievance seems strong, recent experience in the courts has demonstrated that nothing is certain. Civil disobedience may be in our future.
5. Extreme debt seems likely to pile up. Well this may not be a specific issue the Catholic Church has spoken to, it remains a fact that we spend money we do not have, and this has moral implications. Little change in a very divided Congress, means there will be likely little progress in arresting a runaway debt. This will become an increasing moral problem that the Church will likely have to address at some level. This too draws us into the morass of debates about spending priorities etc. and may divide us as a Church between fiscal conservatives and those who emphasize the Social Doctrine.
Thus, the next years ahead, will likely draw the Church into increasing conflict with the political scene in general, and the Democratic Party specifically.
And while it is not the instinct to the Church to be drawn into one side of the political debate, moral issues are increasingly demanding from us an unambiguous stance, one which draws us into increasing conflict with the Democratic Party on issues which we consider non-negotiable. At the same time, issues that we may share with the Democratic Party, are less doctrinal or certain for us. We face difficult days ahead, and difficult decisions about strategy and how to engage a party in power that is increasingly at odds with our most central tenants.
The Central question for us is, How will the Church be able to articulate her positions, increasingly at odds with the platform of the Democratic party and be able to resist the (unfair) charge that we are merely the Republican Party at prayer. There are difficult days ahead for the Church.
Let us pray for great courage and prudence.
There is a very lively discussion on this thread, dealing with issues of society vs the church. More than 80 posts that are well worth investigating.
Go back and review exit polling data for as long as you want. You will see this is self-inflicted. You put these people in power; don’t whine to me - clean your own house and fix the problem.
I say the church, and not only the Catholic church needs to draw a line in the sand. Simply say we are NOT going to provide contraceptives or abortions and we are NOT going to bless gay marriages no matter how many laws you pass or court orders you get against us. Put the feds in the position that either have to back off or face the public backlash that would result from priests being hauled out of churches in chains and houses of worship being seized.
I sit and watch liberals pray to God at church, see how they teach their children to pray to God and listen to some who celebrate Obama’s victory last night with prayer. I prayed too. Apparently, I’m on the losing side.
"The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time: the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them."
As a people, how far away from the very basis of our Constitutional protections we have come!
A President's election majority may have hinged, largely, on a population group who preferred him over his opponent because of his willingness to support that "hand of force" which "destroys" both the life and liberty of children in the womb.
Will Cardinal Wuerl allow Kathleen Sebelius to take Communion in the Archdiocese?
Do you suppose they “know” the people who represent them booed God? Do you suppose they care?
No but I guess it didn't bother God either. He blessed them with a victory.
God has not voted yet. Do you suppose those people WILL care when God does vote? At the end of their lives?
From a 2009 story on CatholicNewsAgency.com:
Washington D.C., Mar 30, 2009 / 05:26 pm (CNA).- According to the Washington Times, Archbishop Donald Wuerl of Washington plans to maintain the pastoral request Kathleen Sebelius bishop made in 2007 asking her not to receive Communion.
# 3—The Church pushed for illegals, they shoved for Immigration reform and those Hispanics voted against the Church. So you are partially right.
#4 The Church should have taken a stand when Pelosi started telling the Church what was right and wrong and Biden started pushing abortions , they should have taken a astand then and excommunicated these political whores.
#5 I watch these same Democrats come to Church and then go vote for abortion,and same sex marriage. I don’t know why they come to Church, they should go to a DNC meeting, that is their religion.
#6 God gave us life, but Americans fought for Liberty, a Liberty they now willingly give up for entitlements, and the right to kill their fetus.
#7 Cardinal Wuerl will give it to her himself if she appears before him for it.
#8 of course they know. Many of them were there and did the booing.See my post to #5. The party is their religion. God plays 2nd. fiddle.
Why wait until Biden and Pelosi to take a stand? Why not Kennedy in the late 70’s? Why must it be because of a Catholic politician? Why not the issues themselves? They knew the party was supporting abortion from the beginning.
I also have no doubt who the winner will be.
Stand strong and take up your cross.
You're right but the problem is much deeper. According to exit polls, Obama won Catholic voters 50 percent to 47 percent! That's an alarming number but when you dig deeper into the stats, you discover that Catholics who attend Mass weekly seem to have favored Romney.
Like Judaism, Catholicism is now considered by many as a birth rite. The thinking goes something like this: "since I was baptized into the Catholic Church, even if I don't attend weekly mass, I am a Catholic". These CINOs, many of whom have never been educated in their faith, vote the popular view, while still identifying as catholics. That skews election results based on religious affiliation. How many of these "catholics" would truly accept the teachings of the faith into which they were baptized?
Even in our very small parish, we see the phenomenon of families with children suddenly showing up at church, interested in having them baptized and receiving First Communion. The pastor has done a wonderful job of advising them on their responsibilities as parents and educating the children in the faith. But then, once they have completed a year of education, received First Communion, poof, they disappear.
Let's be realistic about contemporary society. Yesterday's election confirmed something many of us find hard to accept: Government has replaced God in the eyes of the needy. Sports, birthday parties, sleepovers, et al. have replaced Sunday Mass for many families with children. Your thoughts?
Time to make it clear to everyone that just because one is born and baptized Catholic that doesn’t make them a practicing “Catholic”. Catholics are required under pain of mortal sin (which prohibits them from receiving communion and confess their sin before doing so) to faithfully attend Sunday mass at a church if acessable.
Some of these polls are not making that distinction when reporting on what “Catholics” are doing. If they’re not going to Sunday mass they are not practicing their faith and can hardly be representative of that group.
Comparing Catholics to Jews as a racial/tribal type identity, doesn’t work, or make any sense, and Catholics can attend any church in America if they no longer feel like Catholics.
Catholics have always voted democrat with a few, recent, exceptions.
Catholics have always been seen as having politics not in agreement with the people who created the nation, nothing has changed, in fact, the nation is catching up to the Catholic voter.
This Catholic vote is not some new trend, it is historically normal and routine, the democrats, the unions, the big city machines, desiring a powerful central authority, big government, social collectivism, over individuality, tribal identity, seeing nationalism and borders as a hindrance to Catholic growth, it is all traditional.
Liberals are liberal first, then jews, catholics, protestants, second, third or whatever...
People who look to govt first are not followers of any belief system other than man and his govt...
There in lies the churches problems... nobody thanks God when they get a check from uncle Sam.... they may thank God for uncle Sam....
She is under Interdict from her Bishop.
bumpus ad summum
Bravo!/s Let’s further attack our own...and even accuse them of what many of them did NOT do.
He blessed them with a victory.
Uh...NO, I don’t think so. I think he allowed this nation to have what many of them want....perhaps for their ultimate good....when they truly discover where it all leads.
Excellent observation. Back in January of this year ..
Pope Benedict XVI warned visiting U.S. bishops that "radical secularism" threatens the core values of American culture, and he called on the church in America, including politicians and other laypeople, to render "public moral witness" on crucial social issues.
Pope warns of threat to freedom of religion, conscience in US
As I noted in my post #16, many people have replaced God with government. Perhaps because of our unique isolation as a large country, Americans are not paying attention to how the same philosophy is playing itself out in Europe. In multiple speeches, Gov. Mitt Romney addressed the potential plight of America if it continues down the path of borrow and spend. We will turn into Greece. Sadly, far too many Americans lack foresight and live strictly in the present moment. When the well runs dry, like the Greeks, there will be panic and public demonstrations.
Let’s be realistic about contemporary society. Yesterday’s election confirmed something many of us find hard to accept: Government has replaced God in the eyes of the needy. Sports, birthday parties, sleepovers, et al. have replaced Sunday Mass for many families with children.
We can blame our situation on many things...but the MAIN reason we are in this mess is because of all of our choices.
Men have forgotten God; thats why all this has happened. ... Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Until we come to the place of GREAT repentance on the part of the majority of this nation, we will see an increasingly worse scenario. The CHANGE that is really needed is SPIRITUAL. History teaches this. The Sacred Scriptures teach this. Why do we have to learn this the hard way?
The Catholic Church (and not just the Catholic Church) in crisis and at a crossroad.
Is asking someone to refrain from presenting themselves the same as barring them under 915?
While driving errands this morning, I happened to catch a short segment on Glenn Beck's radio program. The female caller identified herself as as "someone who had immigrated from Soviet Russia 12 years ago" to embrace the American dream. She said that when Obama was elected in 2008, she became concerned. She went on to cite Obama's statements and compare them to those she heard growing up in a socialist, marxist society. Now that Obama has been re-elected, she was frightened. Unfortunately, I did not have time to listen to his explanation.
America has abandoned God; we no longer "trust in God". Rush Limbaugh likened Obama to Santa Claus. As he pointed out:
Conservatism, in my humble opinion, did not lose last night. It's just very difficult to beat Santa Claus. It is practically impossible to beat Santa Claus. People are not going to vote against Santa Claus, especially if the alternative is being your own Santa Claus.
At one time, the Catholic Church played that role, providing provisions and support for the poor and destitute. The Catholic Church, not surprisingly, appealed to government, to provide these same services for their beleaguered citizens. Over the course of time, government responded. Now, the Catholic Church is in competition with government, for these souls. Worse yet, the Catholic Church still believes they must deliver to the poor and beleaguered and expect the government to fund their outreach.
Under Obama, the government has responded. If the Catholic Church wishes to receive funding from the government for services they are already providing, then the church must be willing to give in to government demands which include the distribution of contraceptives and abortion services. It's a conundrum. In one regard, the church has accomplished its mission of making government responsible for these individuals; on the other hand, the church has outlived its mission to the poor (in this country). Your thoughts?
***Liberals are liberal first, then jews, catholics, protestants, second, third or whatever... People who look to govt first are not followers of any belief system other than man and his govt... There in lies the churches problems... nobody thanks God when they get a check from uncle Sam.... they may thank God for uncle Sam....***
Nonsense, if that were true then we could count on protestants voting democrat like the other groups, but they never do.
File under ‘D’ for ‘Day Late & Dollar Short’
Forget about being called Republican for talking about social issues. The Democrats have long used this to intimidate bishops. Nor should bishops criticize the Republicans to demonstrate their even-handedness. It was absurd for the bishops to come out against Ryans plan, which was only a proposal, whereas the mandate was an actual blow aimed by Sebelius at the Church.
I don’t think the Church has outlived (or ever will) her mission to the poor. However, that mission MUST take place within the context of the transmission of the GOOD NEWS. We must also remember that the “poor” are not only those who lack for material good....but those who lack spiritual goods as well. ;-)
I honestly think that the Church can no longer partner with what is becoming a very anti-Christian government. These thoughts are not recent. This is something I have considered for quite a number of years.
Our period of confusion as how to best serve the poor via a partnership with government began to fully run amuck in the ‘60’s. It took place because Catholics (lay and clergy) did not have a fully informed understanding of the authentic social teaching of the Church..
I know the PCusa would disagree with you ...again a liberal is a liberal first..
I guess what I was pointing out is why are protestants mostly conservative voters, and Catholics and Jews, and other religions mostly liberal voters?
Why do we know in advance that protestants are going to support the republican, why aren’t they “liberals first”?
And those with Jesus Christ in their heart will know one second in glory outweighs a lifetime of suffering, regardless of their plight here on earth.
And for too many this life is all about them, all about here and all about now..
If your life is about Jesus, about heaven and about spending eternity with Him in heaven, no man or election can bring you down for long.. You will be needed to minister to those when the well is dry.
The Catholic Church has processes to discipline parishioners and has used it on many occasions. hey danced the dance with politicians. Good grief, they made the King of England leave over divorce in a time when he held sway over life and death of his subjects with impunity.
And now that the damage is done, and millions have died in their mother's womb, we are not supposed to say anything about their participation?
And as for the many that did not stand by idly - name one Catholic politician who was held to account for abortion support by the Catholic Church. Name one.
What I heard from our local Bishop and Priests just prior to this election has been mostly vague, nebulous platitudes and advice, such as telling us to pray before voting, etc.
In the future, they are going to have to step up to the plate and speak much more clearly about these issues and really identify the people promoting those "intrinsic evils", so that no one can possibly miss the plain messages they are delivering.
I believe we (the Church) and our Country/Freedoms/Rights are in for some VERY difficult times in the near future, and over the next four years. It may very well involve persecution, and even martyrdom at some point.
However, looking back into history, God chose to enter in human form during very difficult times, both in regards to the rotten and evil government in power then, and in the general sinful and moral debasement of the times. I believe He often uses those kinds of difficult times to create some much greater good.
The years that followed for his early Church were extremely difficult too, as the fire they passed through often ended in severe persecution and martyrdom.
However, God used the "fire" of that anti-God Roman government and their actions (the Crucifixion) to provide us with our greatest good, and he used that same kind of fire to purify His early Church. The Church came through that fire stronger and more focused, and it grew tremendously from the blood shed by those early martyrs. Many phony-baloney heretical pretenders were also shaken out of the Church in those early days, and the clear truths of the Christian Gospel were preserved and presented to the world.
(Think also of the Israelites even before that, back in the Old Testament times, and their struggles and wanderings in the desert before entering the "Promised Land", and their troubles in various captivities under bad, rotten governments, before Our Saviour was born among them, according to God's Holy Will and Plan.)
While I don't relish the thought of the Church in the USA going through any kind of similar troubling times today, I believe God does use those kinds of times to purify and strengthen His Church and His People. It may be time in the USA to purify and clarify His Church and Message here, and even shake out some of the wishy-washy USA Bishops and Priests who are not providing any kind of clarity or Pastoral guidance on these most important and extremely vital issues and teachings of God and His Church, especially about those "intrinsic evils", and the people who promote them.
On the other hand, I believe God also really does want us to pray for our enemies (both foreign and domestic), and I know for myself, I have a very hard time these days trying to kneel down and pray for those enemies, so perhaps this is another way for me to personally learn to better try to conform to His Holy Will. (Can God convert some of those hardcore and seemingly unreachable sleazy politicians and mainstream media nutballs? "Is anything too hard for God?" - Jeremiah 32:27)
Could you expand re: You put these people in power?
Who are you talking about and how could you know that?
1 Samuel 8.
you also have to remember that 30 years ago, it would have been 80 percent of Catholics voted Democrat, so there is a big change...
Who are you talking about and how could you know that?
The people I am referring to are the pro-abortion politicians, especially those who call themselves Catholics.
You can know who helped put them into power by looking at exit polling. Did the Catholic Church do it by themselves? Certainly not. Could Pelosi or Ted Kennedy won their districts with 0% Catholic vote? A look at the numbers could tell us that.
If they couldn't, then the Catholics helped them into power.
This rings true for all of us. If Protesants helped, too, then they are also guilty of helping put and keep them in power. One thing that gets the Catholic Church singled out is they have a formal authority structure from the Pope to the individual parishes.
But make no mistake, any church that supported Liberals is as guilty.
Often and sadly, the hard way is the only way to learn.
There ARE bishops who have taken a stand against politicians who flaunt their immoral positions. Do a simple search and you will find them.
Our nation has chosen...wrongly. Now they will have to live with the consequences.
Although it is true that WE will ALL have to live with the consequences, God is faithful to those who seek HIM. He will be with them to comfort, assist and guide them.
Yes...you are right. THAT is also borne out in history....and in the Holy Bible.
Sadly, the stereotype created by the bishops for the likes of Nancy Pelosi and Ted Kennedy harms the whole Church. Those men have the public square, and are what those of us outside the Catholic Church see.
And we shall see what becomes of the Black Pastors group that spoke up during this election, and how they respond.
The floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bishops.
St. Athanasius, Council of Nicaea, AD 325
The Black pastors will eventually be seen as heroes. IT still amazes me that... with the unemployment level of blacks more than double the national average...that people cannot seem to connect liberal policies to this outcome.
As long as you cherrypick "Protestant" to mean "white evangelical theologically conservative Protestant," sure. Do you seriously want me to believe that all of those ELCA Lutherans (Minnesota's full of them, and Minnesota has been Republican since ... oh, never mind), PCUSA Presbys and ECUSA Episcopalians are all conservative Republicans?
And, BTW, if you similarly cherrypick Catholics, you discover that white Catholics who regularly attend Mass vote Republican.
Catholics vote for President Barack Obama by 50 percent to 48 percent
Setback for Catholic bishops on gay marriage legislation in three states
IrishCentral Staff Writer
Published Thursday, November 8, 2012, 7:07 AM
Updated Thursday, November 8, 2012, 7:07 AM
Catholic voters went for Barack Obama by 50 to 48 percent, mirroring the national result according to exit polls.
Catholics have voted for the winner in every election since 1972, making them one of the most reliable swing vote barometers.
Many Catholics are Hispanic and there is no breakdown of the numbers between how Hispanic Catholics and other Catholics voted.
Catholics still voted for the incumbent despite efforts by many Catholic bishops to portray parts of Obamacare which deal with contraception as an attack on religion.
In addition, three states passed same sex marriage laws despite strong opposition from Catholic leaders. Voters in Washington, Maine and Maryland supported the marriage legislation.
Excellent observations. Check out my new post entitled “Election Reflection for Warrior Catholics”