Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Catholic Conundrum: What's an Anti-Abortion, Pro-Immigrant Voter to Do?
Phoenix New Times ^ | Sep 13 2012 | Monica Alonzo

Posted on 09/13/2012 8:28:28 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

....religious-minded Americans also have to reconcile conflicting stances on political views within the church itself.

For example, both Mormon and Catholic doctrines preach anti-abortion and traditional family values that align with the Republican way. At the same time, church leaders also publicly adopted a Democrat-esque, humane approach to immigration enforcement, inccluding a path to citizenship.

[SNIP]

The conversation also is about immigration and church officials' views that politicians should adopt a more tolerant view of the presence of immigrants.

The softer stance stems from a growing number of undocumented immigrants converting to Mormonism — an estimated 70 percent of Latino Mormons are undocumented. In the Catholic Church, where membership is steadily declining, immigrants are offsetting those losses.

A 2012 poll by the Pew Hispanic Center, a nonpartisan research organization, revealed that 69 percent of foreign-born Latinos identify themselves as Catholic. To maintain membership, religious leaders must tread lightly near these issues.

[SNIP]

Today, about 25 percent of Arizona residents, about 950,000, call themselves Catholic. And the diocese has no problem throwing its weight around.

Olmsted wrote a letter in January to Phoenix-area Catholics blasting portions of "Obamacare," the Affordable Care Act requiring all employers' insurance policies to cover contraception, sterilization, and abortion-inducing drugs.

Priests read the letter at Catholic masses across the Valley.

[SNIP]

The church also easily navigated the Arizona Legislature, where Representative Debbie Lesko, a Republican, sponsored a measure that essentially protected churches and religiously affiliated employers from having to include birth control and related services in their insurance plans.

And yet, members are not always in lockstep with the church.

Despite the bishops' consternation over birth control mandates, 82 percent of Catholics believe that birth control is morally acceptable, compared to 90 percent of non-Catholics, according to a Gallup poll conducted in May.

(Excerpt) Read more at phoenixnewtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics; Worship
KEYWORDS: aliens; catholic; catholicvote
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-86 next last
The conversation...is about immigration and church officials' views that politicians should adopt a more tolerant view of the presence of immigrants.

The softer stance stems from a growing number of undocumented immigrants converting to Mormonism — an estimated 70 percent of Latino Mormons are undocumented. In the Catholic Church, where membership is steadily declining, immigrants are offsetting those losses.

A 2012 poll by the Pew Hispanic Center, a nonpartisan research organization, revealed that 69 percent of foreign-born Latinos identify themselves as Catholic. To maintain membership, religious leaders must tread lightly near these issues....

....Despite the bishops' consternation over birth control mandates, 82 percent of Catholics believe that birth control is morally acceptable, compared to 90 percent of non-Catholics, according to a Gallup poll conducted in May.

1 posted on 09/13/2012 8:28:30 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

Easy! Anybody who is anti-abortion must vote against pro-abortion candidates, regardless of their stance on immigration. Laws regarding immigration can be changed. Abortion cannot be done over. Once the child is aborted, that is the end of the story. An immigrant denied legal entry can wait and try another day.

The voter can try to change the mind of a pro-life, anti immigration elected official. There is no second look for the anti-life, pro immigration official. The child is dead.

Easy choice for a thinking Catholic.


2 posted on 09/13/2012 8:35:53 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (Joe Biden is reported to be seeking asylum in a foreign country so he does not have to debate Ryan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

Why does the article assume that a no holds barred Democratic approach to immigration is the only humane one. Encouraging people to risk their lives to immigrate illegally is not humane.


3 posted on 09/13/2012 8:35:59 AM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic

Ok.

Mitt Romney believes in expanding abortion services and making everyone pay for it through Romneycare.

Obama believes in expanding abortion services and making everyone pay for it through Obamacare.

How is this a simple choice? From what I can see the faithful prolife Catholic cannot choose either.


4 posted on 09/13/2012 8:42:14 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

I would have little problem with amnesty if the Government would guarantee that no immigrants would be allowed in illegally. I mean stop them. Relatives in Mexico who wnat to come should stay in Mexico unless they come with a legal Visa and then go home.

I would have no trouble with paying more taxes if those taxes went to paying the debt and not to growing Government.

But we all know neither is going to happen.


5 posted on 09/13/2012 8:47:01 AM PDT by Venturer
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic
"Anybody who is anti-abortion must vote against pro-abortion candidates, regardless of their stance on immigration."

The Church is unequivocal in it's teachings that there is a hierarchy of issues that confront society and voters and that Catholics must observe that hierarchy. The "Five Non-negotiables" are or should be known to every Catholic voter.

Peace be with you.

6 posted on 09/13/2012 8:53:44 AM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic

You might be surprised at how many FReepers think a few abortions is an acceptable compromise for a win.

Unfortunately I don’t think the damage from open borders can be undone either. I think America is a marxist future even if we can put it off for a little while.


7 posted on 09/13/2012 8:53:51 AM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: All
The article prejudices the reader, at the very beginning by telling us that "Edilia Gonzales attends Mass every Sunday....She believes that life is sacred, including the life of a child still developing in the womb. And she believes that undocumented immigrants who've made their way to the United States should be treated humanely and with dignity." It prejudices the reader because statistically speaking, being a weekly Mass attending Catholic should put her in the "more conservative" column i.e. voting Republican, not Democrat.

But on the last page of the article we learn "She participates in Mass — but doesn't receive communion because, her politics, according to the church, make her a sinner. And until she "repents," she isn't suppose to partake in that Catholic ritual." The article doesn't say whether she's being denied the Eucharist, or merely staying away from it herself. Either way, I have to wonder if "weekly Mass attending" counts towards conservative leanings if the attendee doesn't receive communion.

8 posted on 09/13/2012 8:54:06 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (At the end of the day, you have to worship the god who can set you on fire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge

Mitt Romney has repudiated his stand on abortioin. Says it was a mistake. Ronald Reagan said the same. The American public believed Reagan, why not Romney? Is it because you WANT to reelect Obama?


9 posted on 09/13/2012 8:55:39 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (Joe Biden is reported to be seeking asylum in a foreign country so he does not have to debate Ryan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

I am Catholic. I wrote to my bishop telling them that if I find out they are harboring illegal aliens in their rectories, etc., on the dime of parishioners, I will report them to ICE. I dared him to excommunicate me.


10 posted on 09/13/2012 9:01:02 AM PDT by RochesterNYconservative (ROMNEY/RYAN 20121)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

On the one hand you have a potential policy to limit mobility
On the other hand you have a potential policy to limit infanticide
Tell me again about this conundrum you’re dealing with


11 posted on 09/13/2012 9:02:59 AM PDT by muir_redwoods (Hopey changey Low emission unicorns and a crap sandwich)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic

Your ad hominem attacks are repugnant.


12 posted on 09/13/2012 9:07:30 AM PDT by MortMan (Laughter is the best medicine, especially when ridiculing your enemies.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: muir_redwoods

Grow a pair.


13 posted on 09/13/2012 9:07:50 AM PDT by spawn44 (MOO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

So, if a large group of lawbreakers joins your sect, it’s OK and you not only advocate decriminalizing their behavior but want more of them, and being forced into nationalized healthcare is OK too, so long as your sect isn’t subjected to it?

Can they not see the moral rot in this? Apparently not.


14 posted on 09/13/2012 9:12:14 AM PDT by RegulatorCountry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

My close relative attends church several times a week, volunteers, donates more than most. The illegals’ plight have her voting for Obama.


15 posted on 09/13/2012 9:13:29 AM PDT by EnquiringMind
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

“What’s an Anti-Abortion, Pro-Immigrant Voter to Do?”

Kind of like when you don’t like the weather in Chicago, wait a few minutes, and Romney will probably change his position to one that suits you.


16 posted on 09/13/2012 9:17:28 AM PDT by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic
Mitt Romney has repudiated his stand on abortioin. Says it was a mistake. Ronald Reagan said the same. The American public believed Reagan, why not Romney?

Because you are lying.

Reagan never had to "repudiate his stand on abortion" because Reagan was never pro-abortion.

Mitt Romney, just over 2 weeks ago, reverted back to his LIFELONG pro-abortion stance.

Romney is dedicated to abortion, has promoted it, praised it, spoke passionately on it's importance, and how much it has meant to him and his family since 1963, Mitt has paid for abortion, fund raised for abortion. Mitt Romney is deeply, pro-abortion.

17 posted on 09/13/2012 9:23:23 AM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic
Mitt Romney has repudiated his stand on abortioin. Says it was a mistake. Ronald Reagan said the same. The American public believed Reagan, why not Romney?

Because Romney makes John Kerry look steadfast and unwavering. Romney has in the past campaigned as a liberal, and when in office governed as a liberal.

18 posted on 09/13/2012 9:23:49 AM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

The Church’s stand on illegals is incredibly self-serving. Just meant to increase the number of Catholics in the country, the Church’s influence, and the cash flow into the collection baskets.

(of course, since Benedict started taking the Liturgy back to the 1950’s, Latin America has been going Evangelical at a dizzying pace. So the joke may be on them)


19 posted on 09/13/2012 9:43:06 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Buckeye McFrog

Ridiculous!


20 posted on 09/13/2012 9:49:29 AM PDT by SumProVita
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic

Oh, no, no.

We can work to stop abortion without changing laws by changing hearts and minds. After all, if no women decided to have abortions, there would be no abortions.

But it is the law itself that is the problem with immigration. Immigrating is not a sin in itself as abortion is; it is often a positive good that people do for the sake of their families. It is only the law that makes it a crime. So we must do what we can to change the law.

/fuzzy-minded liberal Catholic sarcasm.


21 posted on 09/13/2012 10:01:59 AM PDT by heartwood
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: ansel12
Reagan never had to "repudiate his stand on abortion" because Reagan was never pro-abortion.

Because you don't know what you are talking about, you ninny. I lived in CA when Reagan signed the first abortion law in the US -- before Roe v. Wade. Along with many members of my parish, I composed and sent him a telegram begging him not to sign the bill. I received a letter from him AFTER he signed the bill explaining his position -- a lot of drivel about rape and incest, completely ignoring that the legislation interpreted the phrase "for the health or life of the mmother" as extending to "mental anguish", IOW any excuse for abortion on demand.

I remember when he changed his tune when he ran for President and proclaimed that signing the abortion law in CA was "the worst mistake" he ever made. In the mean time, I watched the number of abortions in CA exceed the number of live births.

But, we accepted Reagan's change of heart.

Romney has now said that he believes in abortion in the cases of rape and incest and for saving the life of the mother. That's not good, but Obama favors allowing the child to die on the delivery table and prohibits any palliative care for the newborn, which is even worse. Not only that, he is forcing all of us to pay for abortions across the board as a substitute for birth control.

I'll take my chances with Romney who appears to have moderated his previous position, backed by a strong pro-lifer, Ryan, who can be very persuasive over the evil one, currently occupying the empty chair. It's easy.

22 posted on 09/13/2012 10:03:08 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (Joe Biden is reported to be seeking asylum in a foreign country so he does not have to debate Ryan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic

“Mitt Romney has repudiated his stand on abortioin. Says it was a mistake. Ronald Reagan said the same. The American public believed Reagan, why not Romney? Is it because you WANT to reelect Obama?”

“I’m not lying to you this time”. What did he do as governor of Massachusetts? Passed Romneycare. Is he willing to go on the record and repudiate it?

Romney has said and done whatever he believes will help him get elected wherever he’s up for election.


23 posted on 09/13/2012 10:03:36 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic
"Anybody who is anti-abortion must vote against pro-abortion candidates, regardless of their stance on immigration. Laws regarding immigration can be changed."

Laws won't change abortion either. Women have to be convinced it is wrong.

24 posted on 09/13/2012 10:04:25 AM PDT by ex-snook (without forgiveness there is no Christianity)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: MortMan
I wrote: Mitt Romney has repudiated his stand on abortion. Says it was a mistake. Ronald Reagan said the same. The American public believed Reagan, why not Romney? Is it because you WANT to reelect Obama?

You replied: Your ad hominem attacks are repugnant.

Where is the ad hominem attack? I didn't attack Romney. I support Romney, with reservatons. I didn't attack Reagan, I supported Reagan in every election he ran in, even though I was sick at heart at his stance on abortion in 1968 and told him so. He was still better for CA than Brown (a Catholic). Reagan later repented his signature on the Bill.

I didn't attack the poster whom I addressed. I merely asked him a question because it is apparent that to vote against Romney is to vote to re-elect Obama. Where is the attack? I wrote the truth, even if you don't want to believe it.

25 posted on 09/13/2012 10:18:26 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (Joe Biden is reported to be seeking asylum in a foreign country so he does not have to debate Ryan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: ex-snook

The majority of women already are convinced that it is wrong. Changing the law would get the providers (like Planned Parenthood) out of the busness because their malpractice insurance would not cover them. We can pray for the rest of them.


26 posted on 09/13/2012 10:21:57 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (Joe Biden is reported to be seeking asylum in a foreign country so he does not have to debate Ryan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: JCBreckenridge
For example, both Mormon and Catholic doctrines preach anti-abortion and traditional family values that align with the Republican way.

That's not technically true. The Mormon Church does discourage abortion, but it is not strictly speaking anti-abortion in the same way the Catholic Church is. The Mormon church says that abortion is ok if your bishop "counsels" a couple that it is ok. (A blanket statement that makes abortion under almost any circumstances alright so long as the local bishop or stake presidency tells you that it's ok.) The Church also states that abortion may be ok in the cases of rape, incest, etc. (That's what the Church's General Handbook of Instructions to Priesthood leader says). So it is true the Mormonism's abortion stance is in line with the "Republican way," but it is not entirely true to say that the Mormon Church is anti-abortion in the same way that the Catholic Church is.

How is this a simple choice? From what I can see the faithful prolife Catholic cannot choose either.

You're right, this is a bit more complicated for Catholics than is being suggested. There are certain sins which are defined by the Catholic Church as "intrinsically evil". Abortion is one of those sins. Immigration is not even in the same category of importance for Catholics. Catholics are bound to do whatever they can reasonably do to stop abortion, but they are not bound to the USSCB's prudential approach to Comprehensive immigration reform.

Romney has also made the choice more difficult by openly endorsing abortion in certain circumstances (such as "health" of the mother, rape, and incest.) All are intrinsic evils to Catholics, unless it is to save a mother's life, and the killing of the baby is not intended.) The health of the mother exception can be used to justify just about any abortion by a mother invoking some frivolous claim about emotional health or whatever. Another problem with Romney, is that he undermines true marriage in practice while verbally claiming to support it. (For instance, Romney endorses Homosexual Adoptions just to name a couple of things.)

These things amongst many other things would make it very difficult for a good Catholic to vote for Romney in good conscience. The only way you could argue that a Catholic may be able to vote for him is that he is the "lesser of two evils" and to vote for him would be to materially cooperate with evil. This raises more complicated moral questions because not all moral theologians agree what circumstances justify a person to materially cooperate with an intrinsic evil to avoid a greater degree of intrinsic evil.

27 posted on 09/13/2012 10:25:14 AM PDT by old republic
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: old republic

And that’s exactly why I find myself supporting Virgil Goode.

Thanks for your commentary. It’s good to know that some folks out there understand what we are working through.


28 posted on 09/13/2012 10:38:22 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic
You are still lying.

Reagan was never pro-abortion, we know about the bill he signed for the health of the mother.

Your lie should be easy to prove, show us the public evidence of Reagan espousing his pro-abortion views, and then having a change of heart in later years.

As Mitt boasts, his mother campaigned as a pro-abortion candidate for the Senate in 1970, where are Reagan's pro-abortion statements, positions, writings?

Reagan never had a "change of heart" switching from being a pro-abortion man to being against abortion, you lying scum, because he was never pro-abortion.

You are lying about life long abortion supporter, Mitt Romney, also.

*“My position has been the same throughout my political career, and it goes back to the days of 1970,” he said. “There was a woman who was running for political office, U.S. Senate. She took a very bold and courageous stand in 1970, and that was in a conservative state. That was that a woman should have the right to make her own choice as to whether or not to have an abortion. Her name was Lenore Romney, she was my mom. Even though she lost, she established a record of courage in that regard.”*

The courage that he says she instilled may have been what enabled Mitt Romney to announce a couple of weeks ago that he was returning to his pro-abortion position, and was never anything but, and to say with a straight face, that he had openly campaigned as a ‘health of mother’ abortion advocate.

29 posted on 09/13/2012 10:40:09 AM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: old republic

I’m glad that you pointed out that Mormonism is not really pro-life. Harry Reid for instance, is a fully qualified, Temple Mormon.

As a Bishop, Stake President, and an attorney, Mitt Romney pointed that out to an interviewer.

*”Governor Mitt Romney: I’m proud of my faith. There is nothing I distance myself from. There are Mormons in the leadership of my Church who are pro-choice, and they do not violate that. Your not a lawyer, but you have to read that a little bit more carefully.”*


30 posted on 09/13/2012 11:10:44 AM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

John Chrysostom (347-407)

Why sow where the ground makes it its care to destroy the fruit? where there are many efforts at abortion? where there is murder before the birth? for even the harlot thou dost not let continue a mere harlot, but makest her a murderer also. You see how drunkenness leads to whoredom, whoredom to adultery, adultery to murder; or rather something even worse than murder. For I have no name to give it, since it does not take off the thing born, but prevents its being born. Why then dost thou abuse the gift of God, and fight with His laws, and follow after what is a curse as if a blessing, and make the chamber of procreation a chamber for murder, and arm the woman that was given for childbearing unto slaughter? For with a view to drawing more money by being agreeable and an object of longing to her lovers, even this she is not backward to do, so heaping upon thy head a great pile of fire. For even if the daring deed be hers, yet the causing of it is thine. Hence too come idolatries, since many, with a view to become acceptable, devise incantations, and libations, and love potions, and countless other plans. Yet still after such great unseemliness, after slaughters, after idolatries, the thing [fornication] seems to belong to things indifferent, aye, and to many that have wives, too.

-Homily 24 on Romans


31 posted on 09/13/2012 11:22:29 AM PDT by jacknhoo (Luke 12:51. Think ye, that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, no; but separation.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic

The ad hominem is accusing the poster of supporting the reelection of Obama because they noted a reservation about Romney. Noting that a non-vote for Romney has that effect is one thing, but accusing of a pro-Obama bias (on FR, at least) is insulting to anyone who is struggling with the distaste they have for the republican candidate.

Phrasing the accusation as a question is merely a rhetorical device.

The reason why Romney is less believable on his change of mind is the history of such position pivots, depending on which audience he has been facing at the time.

Yours is not an egregious example, but it is a very common one. I am a reluctant supporter for Romney - and much more enthusiastic for Ryan. I have been fielding such accusations for months - and I suppose I’m touchy about it.


32 posted on 09/13/2012 12:01:35 PM PDT by MortMan (Laughter is the best medicine, especially when ridiculing your enemies.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
I would say that the ones who attend are 30 or 20 percent? at certain churches for Obama(IMHO). Most are not. The polls are asking people who are born Catholic mostly who then declare "catholic'.

Down here in north suburbs of Georgia I go to several churches. They are mostly very conservative. The one in this town Woodstock because of prayer vigils in front of abortion center, closed it down last year. Also the bishops letter against Obama Care was read at all churches in June and July.

From my experience the most hardcore conservatives are the ones who I usually pray prayers in chapel Holy hour or before or after mass. I never met a devout prayer who was not conservative.

I hope this can give you an accurate view.

33 posted on 09/13/2012 12:15:04 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: johngrace
The polls are asking people who are born Catholic mostly who then declare "catholic'.

The polls are of Catholics who identify as Catholic, and who have been baptized into the Catholic church.

If they identify as an ex-Catholic but still consider themselves Christian, then they are counted as Protestants, as are Christians that don't have any church, or even baptism.

34 posted on 09/13/2012 12:23:04 PM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: ansel12

I beg your pardon. I am NOT lying about Reagan. I was there, & I was tremendously grieved over the results of that Bill. However, I (like many Catholics) believed that it would be over-ruled by Congress. And then we were hit by Roe v. Wade, thanks to the US Supreme Court. I’m still waiting for a change on that front while more than 50 million souls have perished.

To tell the truth, Reagan was probably influenced by Nancy and the sob stories that were floating around CA at the time and never really thought that much about it. He was worrying about his own budget deficit looming over him and the riots on the UC campus every time the Regents held a meeting. He claimed (and I believed him) that he didn’t realize how the “health of the mother” loophole would be used and was sorry for it in the long run.

I don’t know where you lived (or even if you were alive) but I can assure you that these topics were on the forefront in CA in the late ‘60s when he was Governor. Don’t spout off about events you seem to know nothing about.


35 posted on 09/13/2012 1:04:42 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (Joe Biden is reported to be seeking asylum in a foreign country so he does not have to debate Ryan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic

You are lying, over and over, and it doesn’t matter where you lived, by the way, many of us were alive then, and even lived in California under Reagan, me included, that doesn’t change anything about the fact that you are lying.

Reagan was never pro-abortion, that is why you cannot find him ever speaking or writing in favor of abortion, Reagan was always pro-life.

No matter how devoted you are to your pro-abortion candidate, you need to stop lying about Reagan.


36 posted on 09/13/2012 1:17:08 PM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic
He claimed (and I believed him) that he didn’t realize how the “health of the mother” loophole would be used and was sorry for it in the long run.

Do you see how the truth bleeds out, even you know that he was never pro-abortion.

37 posted on 09/13/2012 1:29:00 PM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: ansel12
Reagan never had a "change of heart" switching from being a pro-abortion man to being against abortion, you lying scum, because he was never pro-abortion.

Reagan dithered a long time before he signed the bill, which would seem to indicate that, while not "pro-abortion", he certainly didn't hold a non-negotiable, pro-life position. Abortion was only just appearing on the horizon as a national issue at this time and Reagan was a new governor. These two factors can be counted in his favor, as he was undoubtedly swayed by the "life of the mother" arguments.

Two million abortions resulted from his signature on that bill and even the bill's author said he was surprised by the liberal way in which it was interpreted.

As a result, Reagan had what could perhaps best be called an "awakening", rather than a "change of heart" and he lamented signing the bill. He subsequently espoused a pro-life position for the rest of his life. Whether he considered life issues, including abortion, to be the major issues facing America, is another question, however.

In general, the Republican contribution to the sharp end of the abortion conflict has been less than stellar, especially when it comes to nominating Supreme Court justices.

38 posted on 09/13/2012 1:32:11 PM PDT by marshmallow (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
The point is that Reagan was never pro-abortion, was always pro-life, and never had to switch.

It is a lie when these romneybots parrot Mitt Romney's attacks on Reagan by saying he was pro-abortion.

Romney has been claiming and spreading a new history that Reagan was "adamantly pro-choice".

Back then we didn't even use the language of "pro-life", pro-choice" and we trusted doctors and "substantial health" and the requirement of a medical committee, sounded legitimate.

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

39 posted on 09/13/2012 1:42:17 PM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: johngrace
I would say that [the ones who attend] are 30 or 20 percent? [at certain churches] for Obama(IMHO). Most are not. The polls are asking people who are born Catholic mostly who then declare "catholic'.

I have read that the more often a Catholic attends Mass, the more likely said person attends, the more likely said person is politically conservative. I've also been told that only about 10% of Catholics attend Mass at least weekly. Putting the two together, they say that the number of "real Catholics" in this country is no higher than 7 million (i.e. not the 70 million or so that the USCCB reports).

But that's the maximum. If your 20-30% number holds true (and I believe it does), the number of (reliably) politically conservative, observant Catholics actually numbers around 5 million. This doesn't surprise me. It's one way to understand why Crisis Magazine would report this about The Mythical Catholic Vote: The Harmful Consequences of Political Assimilation:

Unfortunately enough, Catholics are largely indistinguishable from non-Catholics and, despite a few pundits, no, there really is no “Catholic vote.” This obvious conclusion—clear enough from the fact that the vote for the winning candidates in the last national election was approximately the same for Catholics and non-Catholics—has serious current implications....

40 posted on 09/13/2012 1:42:45 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (At the end of the day, you have to worship the god who can set you on fire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: ansel12

By the way, that article is from January of 1968, doctors were already abusing the law, and those two were being brought up on charges of aborting for German measles, which was a violation of the bill.


41 posted on 09/13/2012 1:47:46 PM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
Of probable interest.
42 posted on 09/13/2012 1:52:41 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard
Of probable interest.

Likewise.

43 posted on 09/13/2012 1:58:56 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (At the end of the day, you have to worship the god who can set you on fire.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
Unfortunately enough, Catholics are largely indistinguishable from non-Catholics and, despite a few pundits, no, there really is no “Catholic vote.”

That quote is unfortunate in that it leaves out non-Catholic Christians, it would be great if Catholics voted like non-Catholic Christians.

44 posted on 09/13/2012 2:06:14 PM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy
Interesting points about voting. I do not know how accurate but I see the line of reasoning.

"Putting the two together, they say that the number of "real Catholics" in this country is no higher than 7 million (i.e. not the 70 million or so that the USCCB reports)."

But for repenting at the end of life. One thing is for sure I know when someone is diagnosed with a terminal disease they do come back. I remember my neighbor reading the bible having any Catholic or Christian come in to talk and pray. So Thank God in a way for slow illness for them to get serious about there soul. I have done prayers myself to help make a real decision for Christ happen for many in terminal illness. Praise be to Jesus.

45 posted on 09/13/2012 2:54:34 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Alex Murphy

Hopefully stay home.

If Catholics and Jews in America are still going to vote for Obama then they are delusional and, frankly, stupid.

So when the SHTF, don’t come knocking on my door for help when the hoards come for you morons.


46 posted on 09/13/2012 2:57:46 PM PDT by Fledermaus (Democrats are dangerous and evil. Republicans are just useful idiots.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ansel12

Gee Whiz. It sure seemed like he was pro-abortion when he signed that Bill and sentenced those innocent babies to death. THey probably thouht so too when the scissors came after them. When he followed up with a letter to me explaining his reasons it sure sounded like he had been pro abortion. I guess he had me foooled. Even when he later explained that he’d made a mistake and regretted it, it sure seemed like he’d been pro-abortion. Most of the country thought so because he was running for President by then.

I’m glad that you know better than those of us who lived there then and opposed the Bill and could set me straight. Sarc/off

BTW, what were you doing in 1967 and 1968? Where did you live and where did you acquire your depth of knowledge?

Or, were you even born yet?


47 posted on 09/13/2012 3:34:15 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (Joe Biden is reported to be seeking asylum in a foreign country so he does not have to debate Ryan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic

Anybody can fool a lying anti-Reagan troll, Romney has you lying up a storm.

If you know a lot about Mitt Romney, then can you tell us if at this moment (today, right now), is Mitt pro-life, or pro-abortion?

Does Mitt support the GOP party platform on abortion?


48 posted on 09/13/2012 3:42:29 PM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
Thank you marshmallow! I don't know where this troll (Ansel12) is coming from, but I'm getting tired of being called a liar among other disparaging names. As far as I know, Ansell did not live in CA, even if he were alive at the time Reagan signed the Bill. I did live there. I was part of the conversation over that Bill (against it.) I did receive a letter from Reagan explaining his capitulation to the pro-abort forces behind the Bill. I was part of a wider community conversation of people upset about the Bill. We all thought we just had to bide our time before it was overturned.

I have a bracelet (sort of like the POW-MIA bracelets) that I bought at a Catholic Daughters' convention that I vowed to wear until Roe v Wade was overturned. I confess that I got tired of wearing it every day. I think it's time to get it out again -- at least on Sundays.

49 posted on 09/13/2012 5:20:36 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic (Joe Biden is reported to be seeking asylum in a foreign country so he does not have to debate Ryan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: afraidfortherepublic; marshmallow

marshmallow didn’t agree with you.

You are lying about Ronald Reagan ever having been a pro-abortion man, he was always pro-life.

If Reagan was pro-abortion, then post the quotes, the writings, the speeches.

You need to quit lying about this. Lying about Reagan is not looked on favorably at FR.

Some things are a difference of opinion, but Reagan being pro-abortion is not one of those things.

To keep calling Reagan pro-abortion and totally ignoring the facts and the challenges to produce the quotes, the writings, the speeches, pretty soon identifies you as a lying troll, not someone who is temporarily mistaken, or merely uninformed.

You have dishonestly attacked Reagan all day, why not answer this about your candidate, who you refuse to discuss?

“If you know a lot about Mitt Romney, then can you tell us if at this moment (today, right now), is Mitt pro-life, or pro-abortion?

Does Mitt support the GOP party platform on abortion?”


50 posted on 09/13/2012 5:58:35 PM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-86 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson