Posted on 07/30/2012 1:25:50 PM PDT by NYer
Archbishop Chaput addresses the reality of Satan
Letter from Beyond
Catholic Word of the Day: GEHENNA (Hinnom, 10-17-11
To hell with Hell?
Gehenna
Hell Has to Be
The eternity of hell
Hell Is Not Empty and Pedophile Priests Will Go There" (Why Preaching on Hell is Salutary)
The Eternity of Hell
The Four Last Things: Hell
Catholic Caucus: HELL EXISTS AND WE MIGHT GO THERE!
John Calvin’s Worst Heresy: That Christ Suffered in Hell
Natural Calamities Divine Threats & Four Gates of Hell The four Principal Gates of Hell : I Hatred
Pope speaks with priests from his diocese about Heaven and Hell
Whatever Became of Hell? (HAS THE UNQUENCHABLE FIRE BEEN QUENCHED )
One Man's Visit to Hell
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 11: Hell
A Question Of Hell (One Minister Questions Its Existence)
Pope says hell and damnation are real and eternal
The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns
The Early Church Fathers on Hell - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
IS THE NEW MASS ‘SOFT ON HELL’?
Heaven and hell seem to be forgotten
Which circle of Hell do You belong in?
"To Hell with Hell!": The Spiritual Dumbing Down of the Generations
Reflecting on Hell: Sermon for the First Sunday in Advent
The Reality of Satan and the Victory of Jesus and Mary (an Exorcist speaks out)
Beware the Serpent’s Promises
Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death(Only One 1/2 of 1% Think They Are Hell-Bound)
Sister Faustina's Vision of Hell
—I really wish (hope) you are right.—
Thing is, as a Christian this is almost irrelevant. But it is relevant because, as a Christian, when I was being taught the
“eternal suffering” message and believed it, it was tainting my perception of God.
And when I actually studied the subject and looked at all the scripture discussing the fate of those that never know Jesus, I noticed that, to believe in the “eternal suffering” model, I had to give “special Christian meaning” to simple words like “death” and “destruction”. IOW, I had to redefine words to mean things that they don’t mean.
Also, the whole concept of eternity messes up the whole formula. I coined a phrase about 8 years ago: Time is a current in an ocean called eternity. IOW, one could argue that yesterday will exist for all eternity, as will today. They have actually already happened if you are outside of time and in eternity. You can see the beginning and end of the current.
But even this is only a theory based on what the bible says of time and eternity and the character of God.
1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
—if people do not like the way hell is described i guess they might just go there and see how they would describe it.—
Thing is, for me it was not that I didn’t like it. Rather, it didn’t fit with my understanding of the personality of God. And this is the most important part: When I actually studied it, I found that the “consciously suffering for days without end” paradigm is not what is taught in the bible. Yes, it speaks of gnashing of teeth, and it says that where the lost go will be for all eternity, but there are a lot of ways to interpret that when we are talking about a place outside our physical creation we currently occupy. And “time” is part of that.
I’ll use a very short section of a sci-fi book I read once as an example. A character in a space ship that was being chased by another space ship had the ability to envelop a thing in a field that “froze” the object in space and time. Then, at any future time, even after thousands of years, the application of a “key” would undo the effect. The people who had been encased in this field would think that not one second had passed. It was as if time had completely stopped for them, and then started again.
So he used it on the ship chasing them, and since they were in deep space, one could assume they would be in that position until the end of time, though they would not be aware of the passage of time.
So, I think of hell as a place apart from God and since nothing can exist outside the presence of God, they cease to function, and they will be in that position for all eternity. They are not coming back.
The bible is actually pretty clear about it when it says they go to “death and destruction”. If we read that anywhere besides the bible and did not have a pet theory to protect, we would interpret that to mean, well, what it clearly means. But when the bible says it, and we’ve been preconditioned with centuries of teaching on “eternal suffering”, we try to twist the words to mean something they don’t.
This is a big deal to me because when discussing Christianity with non-Christians, this “eternal suffering” thing is a HUGE roadblock. Rather than “scaring them” to repent, it causes them to throw the whole thing out as myth. And the reason is simple: It contradicts the whole “loving God” message, as demonstrated in the analogy of the man asking the woman to marry him. They simply can’t get past it.
If it was a legitimate stumbling block put there by God, I would have a different opinion. But I think it was put there by well meaning (perhaps) men many hundreds of years ago as a way to get more people to accept Christ. And it probably worked to get people to go to church and give money, but it contradicts the scripture and the personality of God. Sure, they will not come into eternal life, but the opposite of eternal life is eternal death according to the bible. And death is “eternal” not as an ongoing activity but, rather, something that stays the same for eternity: You die and you STAY DEAD.
The only scripture that seems to contradict this is the fate of the humans in the end that accept the mark of the beast. Key word: Seems.
—if people do not like the way hell is described i guess they might just go there and see how they would describe it.—
BTW, the book I mentioned is Red Lightning, by John Varley. It is the sequel to Red Thunder. If you like science fiction, I highly recommend those books. But I digress...
Says who? Who are you to judge God's character?
God gives reprobates exactly what they want -- His absence. How is that not "loving"?
but also better fits the description of the eternity experience of non-Christians as described in the bible.
The Bible makes no general claim about "the eternity experience of non-Christians". But as for the reprobate souls, Jesus says they go to a place "where the fire is not quenched, and the worm dieth not". Doesn't sound like annihilation to me.
—Says who? Who are you to judge God’s character?—
I’m not judging God’s character. I’m interpreting His character as described in His word as well as my personal relationship with Him.
—God gives reprobates exactly what they want — His absence. How is that not “loving”?—
I’m not saying it isn’t. It’s called “following through”, which a loving “person” that doesn’t lie will do.
—The Bible makes no general claim about “the eternity experience of non-Christians”.—
It’s rife with them. It says Christians go to “eternal life” and the rest go to “death and destruction”. See the difference? One is “life” and eternally so. The other is “death” and “destruction”. One lives and continues to live and the other dies and is destroyed. Sound’s like annihilation to me.
—But as for the reprobate souls, Jesus says they go to a place “where the fire is not quenched, and the worm dieth not”. Doesn’t sound like annihilation to me.—
Yes. And that is a great way of saying they are NOT coming back. And if you will notice, the FIRE is what is not quenched and the WORM is what does not die. I send my steers to be slaughtered at a slaughter house. Just because it has been there for a long time and probably will continue to be, the steers I send there are slaughtered only once. They “die” and are “destroyed”, but the slaughterhouse continues on.
IOW, I interpret that scripture to mean their death is final. There will be no second or third chance.
Also, in interpreting scripture, context is important. the scripture you are quoting occurs three times in the same chapter of Mark. What proceeds each occurence is the “cut off your hand” and “gouge out your eye” scriptures. If I were an honest man and took that scripture to mean exactly what it is saying, I would be blind and have no hands or feet.
Yes He did.
God created Hell for Satan to punish his sin. We all know that Satan's sin was (is) pride. What people seem to miss, though, is that is exactly our sin as well. Everything else that we call sin are but symptoms of that one--pride. Since our sin is no less than Satan's himself, why should we suffer anything less than Satan?
—Since our sin is no less than Satan’s himself, why should we suffer anything less than Satan?—
The blood of Christ.
Also, Satan is not human. The only place in the bible that discusses this is Revelation 14. And notice that only those who worship the beast and take his mark are sharing eternity with Satan. Keep in mind, also, that this is in Revelation, and all that that implies.
Read this for a more verbose explanation: http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
Go to the heading REVELATION 14:11
Yes, the blood of Christ keeps us with Him. However, there is only one punishment for sin (and rejection of Him), because there is only one sin.
God did not create Hell for us--He created it for Satan. Since sinners choose to be with Satan, rather than Christ, they get to be with him for all eternity.
In Hell.
I think we agree there is a “Hell”. I think the discussion is regarding what it will “feel like”. And what does it really mean?
Given those two items, I have to believe that Hell is a place of eternal torment.
As I also believe that our souls are eternal, there will be no death--as defined as "ceasing to exist." The death described is being eternally separated from God in a place of torment--Hell.
As mentioned above, Matthew 13:42 tells of "wailing and gnashing of teeth" which indicates torment to me.
—As I also believe that our souls are eternal, there will be no death...—
I also used to believe that. But I started noticing the verses that say “eternal life vs death and destruction” and I realized I was really twisting the meaning of English words to hold that view.
And we are talking about something that we can’t really “know” until after death of our physical body and the resurrection. And some will go to the second “death”.
I can’t find any scripture that supports that the “soul” is eternal, Christian or not, though that was what I was being taught the first years after becoming a Christian.
Therein is a problem (Not saying you are incorrect yet)--what does the original Greek/Hebrew say, and how are those words translated into English?
English can be a very limited language. Rely on the meanings from the original. Even if you have to write a paragraph where they used one word.
"Eternal life" doesn't indicate anything?
—Therein is a problem (Not saying you are incorrect yet)—what does the original Greek/Hebrew say, and how are those words translated into English?—
Glad you asked that. :-)
When dealing with “challenging” scripture, I go here: http://www.blueletterbible.org/index.cfm
When you search on a book and chapter(you can search chapters, then scroll down to the verse you are looking for), you will notice six cubes to the left of each verse. The “C” cube is a concordance and Greek/Hebrew lexicon (depending on which testament you are in).
There you find out things like the fact that the King James translation of John 14:2 REALLY stretches the meaning of the original Greek to use the word “mansions”.
Enjoy. It’s helped me a LOT over the years.
LOL!! I use that site quite extensively myself.
My bad. I should not have said “Christian or not”. It was a brain fart. Forgive me. :-)
I meant to say it is the promise of Christ for Christians, but only Christians. For those who refuse His free gift it is described as death and destruction, usually juxtaposed against eternal life given to Christians.
Heh, heh. So you already know about it. ;-)
i am sticking to the sulphur pits of fire and flame. the oldies are still the best.
:)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.