Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Diabolical Disorientation
ChurchMilitant.TV ^ | 07/24/12 | Michael Voris

Posted on 07/24/2012 9:08:03 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

Diabolical Disorientation

7/24/2012

Michael Voris

Hello everyone and welcome to The Vortex where lies and falsehoods are trapped and exposed. I’m Michael Voris coming to you from St. Peter’s Square at the Vatican.

Following up on our report yesterday about the influx of gay positive males into the Catholic priesthood and episcopacy over the past 50 years or so .. there is more than ample evidence that this is the case.

For example .. in 1977.. Christian Brother Gabriel Moran was speaking before the annual conference of Christian Brothers and heavily intimated in his speech that religious communities were the ideal setting for homosexual relations. Then there are the widely publicized cases of priests openly challenging Church teaching on homosexuality and receiving absolutely no reprimand or discipline whatsoever.

For example .. The Jesuit Magazine AMERICA in 1978 .. made the incorrect claim .. "the application of Scriptural texts that condemn homosexuality is dubious at best".

Uh, no they are not dubious .. but they played into a gay party line coming from pro-gay Protestant Churchmen who contested that Sodom and Gomorra were not destroyed because of homosexuality and spread the falsehood that it was because they had not been hospitable to their guests.

Not a few Catholic priests were happy to use that line and say it far and wide in CATHOLIC circles and not a few bishops let them get away with it unscathed.

Then there is Dominican Father Donald Goergen who wrote a widely-circulated, pro-homosexual book entitled The Sexual Celibate.

Far from suffering penalties from the Vatican's Congregation for Religious, Goergen was actually REWARDED and elected Provincial of the Chicago Dominican Province, after the book was published.

Some of this is documented in the now out of print book .. The Homosexual Network. It was written by Fr. Enrique Rueda in 1982 who was in shock at what he was seeing all around him in the clergy .. bishops and well as priests.

Speaking of Chicago .. perhaps no single bishop had a greater hand in advancing the homosexual sub-culture in the United States during the past 50 years than Cardinal Joseph Bernardin.

Stories have circulated for years about how gay or gay friendly much of the Chicago clergy was or is .. and that Mundelein Seminary was a virtual training ground for gay clergy .. and it was not alone. One former student for the priesthood was quoted as saying it was not a seminary .. but a feminary .. enjoying a similar reputation as quite a few others .. including Rome’s North American College.

And with regard to Chicago .. get this. In the mid to late 80’s it was becoming apparent even in Rome .. that the homosexual movement within the Catholic clergy in the United States was strong and growing stronger.

One of the centers of that rebellion was a group called Dignity .. a group of dissident Catholics who claims its sole purpose it quote .. "to unite all gay Catholics, to develop leadership, and to be an instrument through which the gay Catholics may be heard by the Church and society." Dignity clearly states that its aim to "promote the cause of the gay Community”.

The Vatican eventually ordered the group out of all Catholic parishes .. something that many diocese in the US were very slow to do .. defying Rome and being disobedient.

In Chicago .. Cardinal Bernardin cleverly used an entirely different tactic. He complied with Rome’s orders. He refused Church recognition to Dignity. However, he created an office called AGLO (Archdiocese Gay and Lesbian Organization), practically identical to Dignity. That office is still operating today and one of its listed resources is Fr. Richard Sparks, a notorious dissenter from Church teaching.

And moreover .. several former Dignity officers ended up as members of AGLO. So what the Cardinal Archbishop of Chicago .. a prince of the Church .. did .. in effect .. was ended up protecting Dignity by giving it a new and apparently "respectable" identity.

It should be noted that Bernardin requested in his will that the Chicago Gay Men’s Chorus sing at his wake in Holy Name Cathedral .. which they did in fact do.

And one further note .. Bernardin exercised quite the influence in the naming of a good number of bishops in the US. Many are his protégés and were advanced for that very reason.

The list of these types of accounts could make a dozen books and hundreds of articles .. and as a matter of fact they have. There was even a website called St. Sebastian’s Angels which was a meeting place for dozens and dozens of homosexual clergy .. including at least one bishop. The site closed down after it was discovered and the bishop was relieved of his duties.

Its is of course horribly sad to talk about of any of this. But the larger point is this. Men like this .. who hide behind collars and under miters are responsible for the destruction of the faith of GOD knows how many people.

And it’s not just a question of active homosexuals in the clergy .. but those who are sympathetic to their cause because of existing friendships from days in seminary for example.

The homosexual agenda .. which is antithetical to Catholic thought and teaching has been promoted and advanced .. or at the very least .. ignored or given a wink and a nod by many many of the very people sworn and graced to protect the faith.

Is it any wonder that when it comes to clear and express preaching on Catholic sexual teaching .. so much of the clergy is simply silent. Even now .. in the face of Obama’s contraception mandate .. the issue has been twisted into one of religious liberty other than what it actually is .. which is an evil and unjust law because it promotes the intrinsically evil practice of contraception.

Could it be that so much of the clergy has fallen absolutely mute on sexual teaching because so much of the clergy disagrees with it and may actually be living a life contrary to it .. including a vast array of secretive homosexuals who are protected by a network of other homosexuals or those sympathetic to them in the hierarchy?

Given how SO MUCH has gone wrong in the Church in this area of sexual morality and still continues unabatedly .. why has there not been even ONE clear definitive statement from any bishops’ conference clearly stating what has gone wrong and reaffirming in no uncertain terms the Church’s teaching.

It was after all .. a cleanup effort from the Vatican itself in the wake of the homosexual priests sex abuse crisis .. that hopefully began something of a reform. Why was that effort not forthcoming from the US Bishops themselves .. who clearly MUST HAVE KNOWN what was going on and cannot be unaware of the homosexual network in their own ranks and among their own clergy and religious orders.

The sex abuse crisis did not drop out of the sky. It was homosexual in nature. It was homosexual priests preying on teenage boys. It was bishops .. some of whom with questionable associations with homosexual clergy and sympathetic to them who engaged in a massive cover up.

And even today .. it is still many bishops and their staffs that allow the so-called Gay Masses to continue right in their diocese and performed by their clergy. These priests are promoted .. given positions of authority .. sometimes in high Church circles and continue to undermine Church teaching with very alarming regularity.

And they continue to go unpunished .. undisciplined and unexplained. Here in Rome .. clergy will tell you quietly and privately that even they cannot say some of this publically for fear of retribution.

But the truth of this ongoing situation must be exposed.

Good and faithful Orthodox Catholics .. laity and clergy .. cannot continue to run into this buzzsaw of twisted theology and modernist clap trap promoted by a secretive homosexual militancy every time they want to advance the truths of the faith.

The same thing has always been true in the Church .. accept the teaching or leave .. but don’t work to undermine the faith for the advancement of your own diabolical and wicked ends.

Years after the miraculous vision of Our Lady at Fatima .. Sr. Lucy one of the three children who the Queen of Heaven appeared to said .. a diabolical disorientation .. her words .. would seize hold in the Church. Could this be what she was referring to?

GOD Love you,

I’m Michael Voris


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: helltoupee
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-57 next last
ChurchMilitant.TV: Gays in the Clergy 07-23

Gays in the Clergy

Hello everyone and welcome to The Vortex where lies and falsehoods are trapped and exposed. I’m Michael Voris coming to you from St. Peter’s Square at the Vatican.

It’s a subject no one really wants to discuss in the open. Every now and then it emerges in an article or book .. but then gets the short shrift as clergymen pass over it as quickly as possible.

The subject? The powerful and influential homosexual sub-culture .. or should we say semi- sub culture.

Here in Rome .. it is no secret .. and if you get in to discussions with the right people who are well informed .. the homosexual mafia is not only a given .. but their power and influence are more far reaching than almost any Catholic in the pew would ever imagine.

These homosexual clergy and their allies have caused tremendous damage to the Church and it’s about time the issue was talked about plainly and openly.

We’ve touched on this topic every now and then .. from the so-called Gay Masses in St. Joseph’s Parish in Sydney’s Newtown neighborhood to the Gay Mass at St. Francis Xavier in the New York Archdiocese to London’s So-Ho District Gay Mass at The church is Our Lady of the Assumption and St Gregory. It doesn’t take a master’s degree or a Papal diploma to know these abominations are evil.

Can you imagine St. Augustine or St. Thomas or Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen giving their blessings to these?

But here’s the larger point. These are allowed to happen .. as well as many other things .. because of the pervasive presence of active and passive homosexuals among Catholic clergy .. many of them very high ranking who wield enormous amounts of influence. And here at the Vatican .. the question is being wondered about and whispered about .. how can this network be put out of business? The problem is that it appears to be so widespread and on every level .. that no one is sure how to tackle it.

While there are a few open homosexuals in the clergy .. some of them bishops like Rembert Weakland who ruled the archdiocese of Milwaukee like his own personal gay Club Med from 1977-2002 when he stepped down in disgrace after his former male “lover” blackmailed him for nearly half a million dollars. Weakland is just the tip of the iceberg however. The homosexual clergy sex abuse crisis which became public ten years ago has brought a number of homosexual clergy .. including bishops .. to the public eye.

It’s not the point of this Vortex episode to go back and re-visit each of those cases .. they are notorious and easily discoverable on the internet .. but rest assured .. there are many of them.

The point it to engage in the larger discussion of the power this network of gay priests and bishops wield and how they use that power not only to live a life of sexual immorality .. but to silence those who seek to expose their evil.

Moreover .. they have been complicit in willfully doing all they could to pervert the liturgy .. seminaries .. schools and every other institutional aspect of church life they could. They have viciously sought to destroy the faith by undermining it at every turn.

This has all tied into a much larger broad based agenda on the part of the homosexual movement in general to force society into accepting same-sex attraction and acting on those attractions as normal and even good.

The movement coalesced in the late 1960’s .. in what some have called The Evil 60’s for a variety of events that that occurred in that turbulent decade.

Militant homosexual activists began to organize socially and politically in the early and mid-70’s .. and it was then that they publicly said it was organized religion that would be their greatest obstacle.

So they first began subtle attacks on Protestant groups .. fighting to have homosexual acts viewed as not being sinful. They joined various denominations and became ministers and leaders and advanced the so-called gay-agenda. At the same time .. modernist Catholics were banging the drum for greater hand-holding with Protestant groups and this trend has continued non-stop since. With a bridge to a more “open and welcoming” style of theology .. Catholic homosexual clergy now had the opportunity to meet each other through already established social and political networks.

And meet they did. Up to this time .. homosexual Catholic priests had remained somewhat isolated from each other except for the occasional meetings. But with networking channels now available to them .. a sea change happened.

The Protestant Clergy Gay Network model was imported into the halls of Catholic clergy and shortly thereafter .. a whole network began developing .. oftentimes under the banner of social justice. One big organization was Call To Action .. which got its start in the Detroit Archdiocese in 1976.

While many consider it the first .. Call To Action would not be the last. Soon more blatant Catholic groups would begin emerging .. like Catholic Coalition for Gay Civil Rights .. Dignity .. New Way Ministry and others .. which openly protest Church teaching and call for change.

Attached to these mostly lay groups were numerous priests and diocesan staffs all across the country .. various priests who in fact would move up the ranks to become heads of seminaries .. monsignors .. and bishops. And what they shared in common was their homosexuality and their desire for the Church to accept their sin as a virtue.

So they spent decades kicking orthodox straight men out of seminaries .. persecuting priests who fought against them .. and insuring that they get as many homosexuals ordained as they possibly could.

As part of the larger plan to overthrow Church teaching .. they have struggled mightily and quite successfully to undermine ALL sexual morality teachings of the Church.

It was many of the loudest voices who opposed Humane Vitae .. Pope Paul’s 1968 condemnation of birth control .. and still oppose it .. who have also come out in favor of greater acceptance of homosexuality in general .. civil unions and even same sex marriage.

While this is somewhat of an overview of WENT wrong and how it happened .. the much more pressing concern is this .. how to eradicate this evil from the bosom of the Church. Here in Rome .. which admittedly moves very slowly with everything .. the fruits of the homosexual clergy culture in the Church .. a mass falling away from the faith .. is only now being realized in all its ugliness.

In many ways .. it’s very secretive .. and no doubt .. in not a few cases .. it is able to threaten to blackmail. But however it’s done .. there are those in the Vatican who say .. this network must be exposed and ended before any more souls are lost.

GOD Love you,

I’m Michael Voris

1 posted on 07/24/2012 9:08:07 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Cronos; wagglebee; dsc; Deo volente; MarkBsnr; Mad Dawg; ArrogantBustard; Running On Empty; ...
There is a reason the Church has failed in its response to the HHS mandate, insisting "its not about contraception." There's a reason the Church has been silent on contraception for almost 50 years. When many of the clergy live lives of personal sexual pathology, and their brother priests are reluctant or unable to say or do anything about it, the Church cannot call the laity to follow the teachings of the Church. This situation is slowly changing, but there are still many homosexuals in the priesthood and among the USCCB membership.

God bless Michael Voris and others recently for having the courage to speak out.

Everyone who has not done so needs to read this series of essays by Peter J. Colosi, and ask yourself WHY the USCCB has failed to make this case:

False Premises

The HHS Mandate: A Question of Religious Freedom or the Life Issues?

The HHS Mandate: This is About Contraception

The HHS Mandate: What Now, In Light of the Supreme Court Ruling?

2 posted on 07/24/2012 9:30:23 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp
I do not want the Gay Men's Chorus to sing at my funeral!

That a Catholic cardinal should request such a thing is quite extraordinary and a complete scandal. This was essentially a celebration of open, unrepentant homosexuality.

3 posted on 07/24/2012 9:49:45 AM PDT by marshmallow (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Thanks for posting this.


4 posted on 07/24/2012 9:51:50 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Depone serpentem et ab veneno gradere.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Sorry to hear that about Bernardin. I had no idea.


5 posted on 07/24/2012 10:36:02 AM PDT by karnage
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Uh, no they are not dubious .. but they played into a gay party line coming from pro-gay Protestant Churchmen who contested that Sodom and Gomorra were not destroyed because of homosexuality and spread the falsehood that it was because they had not been hospitable to their guests.

Brian, please don't understand what I'm about to say. You know I've defended Michael Voris articles on this forum and will continue to do so if need be. But he is wrong when he says that that interpretation of Sedom and `Amorah comes from liberal Protestants. That is simply the traditional, immemorial Jewish tradition. The residents of those cities wanted only wealthy people to settle there and "discouraged" others by such means as homosexual rape (as in Genesis 19).

But regardless of this, male homosexuality is a capital offense for both Jews and non-Jews. The actual prohibition is stated in Leviticus 18, and is elaborated in the Oral Torah.

The liberal Protestants Voris mentions are mistaken that the "inhospitability" interpretation of Genesis 19 means homosexuality is okay. It is not.

Carry on.

6 posted on 07/24/2012 10:38:44 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp
I noticed this Voris guy was ordered by his bishop to drop the word Catholic from his defaming business. I noticed that the folks he slanders and libels are dead folks that can't defend themselves — folks such as Archbishop Bernardin. The only diabolical disorientation here is Voris, et al and their defamation campaign. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor is an explicit command from God.

Mark Shea, June 2012. "The Poisonous Fruit of Michael Voris’ Work". Patheos.com

Voris et al also called Bernardin a homo and claimed Archbishop Bernardin became ordained in order to conduct satanic masses for the promise of fantastic gay sex in return. Anyone who gives an ear to Voris etal should be more ashamed of themselves than any homo, because they have rejected the Holy Spirit, in particular with regard to His explicit command not to bear false witness.

7 posted on 07/24/2012 3:40:26 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
Your hero is the sanctimonious jerk Mark Shea, who slanders and libels anyone who disagrees with his progressive viewpoint of religion and politics, yet you disparage Voris and misrepresent what Voris has said.

No surprise there.

And no surprise that the chancery hacks in the Archdiocese of Detroit, long a hotbed of the homosexual agenda, would try to silence Voris:

April 8, 2011
Michael Voris persecuted: singin' the blues in Motown
By Matt C. Abbott

Michael Voris of RealCatholicTV.com is becoming persona non grata among the Church establishment. A talk he was scheduled to give on the property of the Diocese of Scranton has been canceled by the diocese, which posted the following statement on its website:

    'The Diocese of Scranton has determined that Mr. Voris will not be allowed to speak in a Diocesan or parish facility. After these engagements were scheduled, the Diocese became aware of concerns about this individual's views regarding other religious groups. In videos posted on the Internet, Mr. Voris makes comments that certainly can be interpreted as being insensitive to people of other faiths. The Catholic Church teaches us to respect all people, regardless of their faith tradition. Although the Diocese shares Mr. Voris' support of efforts to protect human life, his extreme positions on other faiths are not appropriate and therefore the Diocese cannot host him.'

Ah, yes — that "insensitive" Michael Voris. Interestingly, last year the bishop permitted a pro-abortion, pro-unnatural vice American University employee, Sara Bendoraitis, to speak at the University of Scranton. (Source) But, hey, she's not insensitive like Voris. I get it.

However, the real culprit in this situation is the Archdiocese of Detroit, where RealCatholicTV.com is located. The archdiocese has been trying to quietly destroy Voris' credibility for some time. In fact, one archdiocesan official reportedly referred to Voris as a "nutcase." Why, you ask? The article below, provided to me by a reliable source who's familiar with the archdiocese, should give you a big hint. (I've done some editing for prudential reasons.)

Welcome to the new springtime, folks.



All you can say at this point is, "They have no one to blame but themselves." After suffering for more than 20 years under the rule of closet liberals, clerical dissidents, poorly-instructed clergy, a chancery staff of near-heretics and pastors who refused to preach the truth, the chickens have finally come home to roost in the Archdiocese of Detroit.

In 2009, close to one-third of the chancery staff were let go. But what's killing the archdiocese more than a bad economy is the falling number of faithful Catholics. The question that needs to be asked, therefore, is what has caused Catholics in Detroit to walk away from the Faith — or, perhaps more to the point, an authentic expression of the Faith? The answer is, quite simply, the type of faith promulgated by the archdiocese for the past generation.

In 1976, thousands of liberals who called themselves Catholic met in Detroit under the ominous title of Call to Action, a group that would lay the groundwork for today's meltdown. They proposed a series of initiatives that many in the archdiocese would take up and spend their careers trying to implement.

Over the next 15 years or so, the seminary (St. John's) would churn out a prolific number of actively homosexual priests led by a "gay-friendly" rector, Monsignor Kenneth Untener. On his watch, homosexual pornography was shown on a regular basis under the guise of "sexuality" classes and was mandatory. Multiple reports from inside the seminary said these regular features resulted in an atmosphere that welcomed random and frequent sexual encounters between seminarians on an ongoing basis. St. John's was finally closed down by the Vatican in response.

This continued to be the case for a number of years until Monsignor Untener and the archdiocese's vicar general, Monsignor Thomas Gumbleton, were summoned to Rome to explain the situation. After what has been widely seen as a cover-up story accepted by the Vatican, both men were eventually promoted to bishop — Gumbleton as auxiliary of Detroit and Untener eventually to the Diocese of Saginaw, where he made quick work of destroying the Faith. He died in 2004.

Bishop Gumbleton remained in Detroit where he served for years as a functionary of the homosexualist agenda (his brother is homosexual), advancing the cause of homosexuality whenever possible. Bishop Gumbleton has in fact been forbidden to preach in some dioceses, yet he "ran wild" in Detroit, spreading decidedly anti-Catholic positions in the area of human sexuality. No effort on the part of the chancery was eve r exercised with enough diligence to rein him in.

Under the influence of Bishops Untener, Gumbleton and others, active homosexuality became rampant among the Detroit clergy. Some reliable estimates place the number at well over 50 percent. With the clergy thus compromised, it was only a small step to the near total collapse of the Faith among the laity in the coming years.

Enter the era of a man by the name of [name redacted], who was so influential during the past 20 years that friends and foes alike nicknamed the place the Archdiocese of [name redacted]. He was the power behind the throne during the term of Cardinal Adam Maida (1990-2009), promoting like-minded closet liberals and homosexual priests to positions of authority and influence throughout the archdiocese.

Under the reign of [name redacted], dissident theology ran wild in the parishes as well as the seminary. In truth, much of the blame of what has gone wrong in Detroit can be laid squarely at his feet. As homosexual priests and liberal lay people ascended the ranks of power, the faith life of the archdiocese sunk further into dismay. Parish after parish began being infiltrated with homosexual pastors as well as "gay-friendly" liturgists and music directors.

Catholic schools — such as the Shrine of the Little Flower in Royal Oak, Michigan — became famous for delivering a "bang-up" education while graduating students who were pro-abortion atheists and Buddhists. Mass attendance began a precipitous decline, particularly among the young (ages 18 to 40). RCIA programs became a joke, with adults being offered coloring books and prayer shawls instead of Catholic teaching. CCD classes were reduced to nothing more than weekly baby-sitting operations for middle school students.

Inside the chancery, the decay was tolerated and even encouraged by the likes of high-ranking archdiocesan officials such as [name redacted], who famously lied for months about the existence of a homosexual-sponsored Mass at Holy Trinity Parish in downtown Detroit until his lies were eventually exposed in a scathing and revealing article [click here to read it] in Catholic World Report (1996).

[Name redacted] continued his rampage against anything and everything even remotely orthodox by routinely slandering lay Catholic groups such as St. Michael's Media, an apostolate founded by lay Catholics dedicated to teaching authentic Catholicism by means of the electronic media. He worked discreetly behind the scenes to undo a contractual arrangement the apostolate had already signed with a Catholic TV outfit in Boston, as well as destroying a budding relationship between St. Michael's Media and EWTN.

The [names redacted] nexus, in fact, was responsible for a continuation of the "gay Masses" that continued unabated at the IHM property every Sunday on Six Mile Road in Detroit. (The article in Catholic World Report shed enough light on the sordid goings-on that the Dignity Mass was quietly moved to the property of the IHM sisters.)

Despite a steady stream of complaints from Mass-going Catholics, not a few priests throughout the archdiocese continue to counsel Catholics against Church teaching in areas such as contraception. Faithful clergy are examined with a rigor normally associated with the Inquisition, while heterodox clergy are given a pass or left to their own devices to preach whatever version of Catholicism they enjoy best — oftentimes from the pulpit.

All this heterodoxy has reached critical mass at the parish level, where an overwhelming majority of Catholics simply no longer see a need to attend Mass. Those who do are rarely instructed in the truth of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist or the need for frequent confession. Unchallenged to live lives of holiness with their priests as living examples, most Catholics in Detroit take a laissez-faire attitude to the Faith and the sacraments.

For close to 20 years, the [names redacted] nexus has installed its own version of the Faith in many subtle ways. The result is that the Faith has become so watered-down and indistinguishable from any other social-help organization that Catholics simply do not identify as Catholics in any meaningful way, and have become the worst of all religious adherents: lukewarm and indifferent.

8 posted on 07/24/2012 4:19:02 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
"I do not want the Gay Men's Chorus to sing at my funeral! "

Then don't invite them. Choose your own chorus.

"That a Catholic cardinal should request such a thing is quite extraordinary and a complete scandal."

Matt 9:10-13, While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and “sinners” came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and ‘sinners’?”

On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[Hosea 6:6] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

"This was essentially a celebration of open, unrepentant homosexuality."

No. It was the Archbishop's funeral. These folks sang the songs the Archbishop chose to be sung, else they were quite and respectful of the occassion. Pride parades are celebrations of open, unrepentant homos.

9 posted on 07/24/2012 4:47:02 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: karnage

You haven’t ever seen me post about “Bernardin’s Boys?”

He led many Popes astray in recommending bishops for replacing retiring bishops.

Be thankful we have Archbishop Dolan now.

And most of all, give thanks and pray for Pope Benedict XVI. He is not part of this boys’ club that has even infected the Vatican through masonry and communism.

We need orthodox, straight Bishops! Please God, hear our prayer.


10 posted on 07/24/2012 5:16:36 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp
"Your hero is the sanctimonious jerk Mark Shea..."

I have no hero. Shea's work carries the qualifier Catholic, Voris has been forbidden by the Bishop from calling his work Catholic. The Vatican installs bishops, with the involvemnt of the Pope. Glad to see you're Magisterium works so well. Too bad Bernardin's pact with satan resulted in the Magisterium going so far astray. Man. I can just smell that YOPIOS crisp from here. Looks like it works wonders.

11 posted on 07/24/2012 5:30:30 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Salvation

Must have missed your “Bernardin’s Boys” posts - or, perhaps, simply didn’t want to see them (I wanted to think the best of Bernardin).

Glad to hear Dolan is good.

And doubly glad to hear your positive opinion of Pope Benedict XVI. He seems like a blessing to the Church - and God knows we need ‘em!


12 posted on 07/24/2012 4:59:28 PM PDT by karnage
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
We need orthodox, straight Bishops! Please God, hear our prayer.

Our Lord is hearing our prayer and the persecution of these good appointed Bishops is at hand. God Bless Pope Benedict XVI!

13 posted on 07/24/2012 6:19:54 PM PDT by stfassisi ((The greatest gift God gives us is that of overcoming self"-St Francis Assisi)))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
The Vatican installs bishops, with the involvemnt of the Pope.

Indeed. Who installed Bernardin? On March 9, 1966 Pope Paul VI appointed Monsignor Bernadin titular Bishop of Ligura and Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Atlanta.

Maybe you should review this interview with Dr. Alice von Hildebrand (unless you place her in the same category as Voris).

Thursday, April 13, 2006

THE CHURCH IN CRISIS -- And Scenarios for a Solution

Present at the Demolition: A Philosopher Remembers and Reminds: An interview with Dr. Alice von Hildebrand

The following conversation with Dr. Alice von Hildebrand opens our discussion of this issue's focus: The Crisis in the Church: Scenarios for a Solution. Dr. von Hildebrand, professor of philosophy emeritus of Hunter College (City University of New York) has just completed The Soul of a Lion, a biography of her husband, Dietrich.

EXCERPT:

TLM: From our conversation throughout this afternoon, I must conclude that you don't believe that the accelerating loss of the sense of the supernatural is an accident of history.

AVH: No I do not. There have been two books published in Italy in recent years that confirm what my husband had been suspecting for some time; namely, there has been a systematic infiltration of the Church by diabolical enemies for much of this century. My husband was a very sanguine man and optimistic by nature. During the last ten years of his life, however, I witnessed him many times in moments of great sorrow, and frequently repeating, "They have desecrated the Holy Bride of Christ." He was referring to the "abomination of desolation" of which the prophet Daniel speaks.

TLM: This is a critical admission, Dr. von Hildebrand. Your husband has been called a twentieth-century Doctor of the Church by Pope Pius XII. If he felt so strongly, didn't he have access to the Vatican to tell pope Paul VI of his fears?

AVH: But he did! I shall never forget the private audience we had with Paul VI just before the end of the Council. It was on June 21, 1965. As soon as my husband started pleading with him to condemn the heresies that were rampant, the Pope interrupted him with the words, "Lo scriva, lo scriva." ("Write it down.") A few moments later, for the second time, my husband drew the gravity of the situation to the Pope's attention. Same answer. His Holiness received us standing. It was clear that the Pope was feeling very uncomfortable. The audience lasted only a few minutes. Paul VI immediately gave a sign to his secretary, Fr. Capovilla, to bring us rosaries and medals. We then went back to Florence where my husband wrote a long document (unpublished today) that was delivered to Paul VI just the day before the last session of the Council. It was September 1965. After reading my husband's document, he said to my husband's nephew, Dieter Sattler, who had become the German ambassador to the Holy See, that he had read the document carefully, but that "it was a bit harsh." The reason was obvious: my husband had humbly requested a clear condemnation of heretical statements.

TLM: You realize, of course, Doctor, that as soon as you mention this idea of infiltration, there will be those who roll their eyes in exasperation and remark, "Not another conspiracy theory!"

AVH: I can only tell you what I know. It is a matter of public record, for instance, that Bella Dodd, the ex-Communist who reconverted to the Church, openly spoke of the Communist Party's deliberate infiltration of agents into the seminaries. She told my husband and me that when she was an active party member, she had dealt with no fewer than four cardinals within the Vatican "who were working for us."

Many a time I have heard Americans say that Europeans "smell conspiracy wherever they go." But from the beginning, the Evil One has "conspired" against the Church -- and has always aimed in particular at destroying the mass and sapping belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. That some people are empted to blow this undeniable fact out of proportion is no reason for denying its reality. On the other hand, I, European born, am tempted to say that many Americans are naive; living in a country that has been blessed by peace, and knowing little about history, they are more likely than Europeans (whose history is a tumultuous one) to fall prey to illusion. Rousseau has had an enormous influence in the United States. When Christ said to His apostles at the Last Supper that "one of you will betray me," the apostles were stunned. Judas had played his hand so artfully that no one suspected him, for a cunning conspirator knows how to cover his tracks with a show of orthodoxy.

TLM: Do the books by the Italian priest you mentioned before the interview contain documentation that would provide evidence of this infiltration?

AVH: The two books I mentioned were published in 1998 and 2000 by an Italian priest, Don Luigi Villa of the diocese of Brescia, who at the request of Padre Pio has devoted many years of his life to the investigation of the possible infiltration of both Freemasons and Communists into the Church. My husband and I met Don Villa in the sixties. He claims that he does not make any statement that he cannot substantiate. When Paulo Sesto Beato? (1998) was published the book was sent to every single Italian bishop. None of them acknowledged receipt; none challenged any of Don Villa's claims.

In this book, he relates something that no ecclesiastical authority has refuted or asked to be retracted -- even though he names particular personalities in regard to the incident. It pertains to the rift between Pope Pius XII and then Bishop Montini (the future Paul VI) who was his Undersecretary of State. Pius XII, conscious of the threat of Communism, which in the aftermath of World War II was dominating nearly half of Europe, had prohibited the Vatican staff from dealing with Moscow. To his dismay, he was informed one day through the Bishop of Upsala (Sweden) that his strict order had been contravened. The Pope resisted giving credence to this rumor until he was given incontrovertible evidence that Montini had been corresponding with various Soviet agencies. Meanwhile, Pope Pius XII (as had Pius XI) had been sending priests clandestinely into Russia to give comfort to Catholics behind the Iron Curtain. Every one of them had been systematically arrested, tortured, and either executed or sent to the gulag. Eventually a Vatican mole was discovered: Alighiero Tondi, S.J., who was a close advisor to Montini. Tondi was an agent working for Stalin whose mission was to keep Moscow informed about initiatives such as the sending of priests into the Soviet Union.

Add to this Pope Paul's treatment of Cardinal Mindszenty. Against his will, Mindszenty was ordered by the Vatican to leave Budapest. As most everyone knows, he had escaped the Communists and sought refuge in the American embassy compound. The Pope had given him his solemn promise that he would remain primate of Hungary as long as he lived. When the Cardinal (who had been tortured by the Communists) arrived in Rome, Paul VI embraced him warmly, but then sent him to exile in Vienna. Shortly afterwards, this holy prelate was informed that he had been demoted, and had been replaced by someone more acceptable to the Hungarian Communist government. More puzzling, and tragically sad, is the fact that when Mindszenty died, no Church representative was present at his burial.

Another of Don Villa's illustrations of infiltration is one related to him by Cardinal Gagnon. Paul VI had asked Gagnon to head an investigation concerning the infiltration of the Church by powerful enemies. Cardinal Gagnon (at that time Archbishop) accepted this unpleasant task, and compiled a long dossier, rich in worrisome facts. When the work was completed, he requested an audience with Pope Paul in order to deliver personally the manuscript to the Pontiff. This request for a meeting was denied. The Pope sent word that the document should be placed in the offices of the Congregation for the Clergy, specifically in a safe with a double lock. This was done, by the very next day the safe deposit box was broken and the manuscript mysteriously disappeared. The usual policy of the Vatican is to make sure the news of such incidents never sees the light of day. Nevertheless, this theft was reported even in L'Osservatore Romano (perhaps under pressure because it had been reported in the secular press). Cardinal Gagnon, of course, had a copy, and once again asked the Pope for a private audience. Once again his request was denied. He then decided to leave Rome and return to his homeland in Canada. Later, he was called back to Rome by Pope John Paul II and made a cardinal.

TLM: Why did Don Villa write these works singling out Paul VI for criticism?

AVH: Don Villa reluctantly decided to publish the books to which I have alluded. But when several bishops pushed for beatification of Paul VI, this priest perceived it as a clarion call to print the information he had gathered through the years. In so doing, he was following the guidelines of a Roman Congregation, informing the faithful that it was their duty as members of the Church to relay to the Congregation any information that might militate against the candidate's qualifications for beatification.

Considering the tumultuous pontificate of Paul VI, and the confusing signals he was giving, e.g.: speaking about the "smoke of Satan that had entered the Church," yet refusing to condemn heresies officially; his promulgation of Humanae Vitae (the glory of his pontificate), yet his careful avoidance of proclaiming it ex cathedra; delivering his Credo of the People of God in Piazza San Pietro in 1968, and once again failing to declare it binding on all Catholics; disobeying the strict orders of Pius XII to have no contact with Moscow, and appeasing the Hungarian Communist government by reneging on the solemn promise he had made to Cardinal Mindszenty; his treatment of holy Cardinal Slipyj, who had spent seventeen years in a Gulag, only to be made a virtual prisoner in the Vatican by Paul VI; and finally asking Archbishop Gagnon to investigate possible infiltration in the Vatican, only to refuse him and audience when his work was completed -- all these speak strongly against the beatification of Paolo VI, dubbed in Rome, "Paolo Sesto, Mesto" (Paul VI, the sad one).

That the duty to publish this depressing information was onerous and cost Don Villa great sorrow cannot be doubted. Any Catholic rejoices when he can look up to a Pope with boundless veneration. But Catholics also know that even though Christ never promised He would give us perfect leaders, He did promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail. Let us not forget that even thought the Church has had some very bad popes, and some mediocre ones, she ahs been blessed with many great popes. Eighty of them have been canonized and several have been beatified. This is a success story that does not bear parallel in the secular world.

God alone is the judge of Paul VI. But it cannot be denied that his pontificate was a very complex and tragic one. It was under him that, in the course of fifteen years, more changes were introduced in the Church than in all preceding centuries combined. What is worrisome is that we read the testimony of ex-Communists like Bella Dodd, and study Freemasonic documents (dating from the nineteenth century, and usually penned by fallen-away priests like Paul Roca), we can see that to a large extent, their agenda has been carried out: the exodus of priests and nuns after Vatican II, dissenting theologians not censured, feminism, the pressure put on Rome to abolish priestly celibacy, immorality in the clergy, blasphemous liturgies (see articles by David Hart in First Things, April 2001, "The Future of the Papacy"), the radical changes that have been introduced into the sacred liturgy (see Cardinal Ratzinger's book Milestones, pp. 126 and 148, Ignatius Press), and a misleading ecumenism. Only a blind person could deny that many of the Enemy's plan have been perfectly carried out.

One should not forget that the world was shocked at what Hitler did. People like my husband, however, actually read what he had said in Mein Kampf. The plan was there. The world simply chose not to believe it.

But grave as the situation is, no committed Catholic can forget that Christ has promised the He will remain with His Church to the very end of the world. We should meditate on the scene related in the Gospel when the apostles' boat was battered by a fierce storm. Christ was sleeping! His terrified followers woke Him up: He said one word, and there was a great calm. "O ye of little faith!"


14 posted on 07/24/2012 8:20:04 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp
"Maybe you should review this interview with Dr. Alice von Hildebrand.

Maybe you should present some hard evidence for your desecration of the faithfully departed.

15 posted on 07/24/2012 8:52:42 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
"Paul VI, the sad one"

Amazing! The Pope's protecting operations for satan. LOL!

16 posted on 07/24/2012 9:00:22 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
Below is an excerpt from Paul Likoudis' book AmChurch Comes Out regarding the Bernardin saga. (Likoudis is news editor of The Wanderer, a Catholic newspaper.)



Bernardin's legacy to the American Church will be discussed and debated, quite possibly, for centuries. No one disputes his influence: as creator of the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and United States Catholic Conference; as a bishop-maker who, working with former Archbishop Jean Jadot, gave the American hierarchy its pronounced pro-gay orientation; as a subtle provocateur who nudged, consoled and empowered dissenters while professing his loyalty to his Roman superiors; as an architect of proposals to deconstruct the Roman liturgy, Catholic education and the all-important field of catechetics.

Bernardin, it must be recalled, at least briefly, was sponsored, tutored and promoted by a number of dubious characters, not only his clerical godfather and mentor, Archbishop Paul Hallinan of Atlanta, who served as a bishop in Bernardin's hometown, Charleston. Bernardin's other "godfather" was Archbishop (later Cardinal) John Dearden, who would be responsible for the appointment of such notorious pro-homosexual bishops as Detroit Auxiliary Tom Gumbleton, Ken Untener of Saginaw, Joseph Imesch of Joliet, and Springfield's Daniel Ryan.

Bernardin's supporters look at all his accomplishments and call them good. To do so, they have to overlook many things, including his connections to some of the most evil men to ever enter the priesthood.

When Joseph Cardinal Bernardin, Archbishop of Chicago, died November 14, 1996 of pancreatic cancer at age 68, he proved himself an impresario to the end, conducting a public relations/media blitz that crescendoed with calls for his canonization....

Everything he did, from the well-publicized death-bed visit by his dear friend Ann Landers, to the gay choir that sang at his funeral Mass, the visit by Hillary Clinton and the letter from her husband, Bill, to the Bernardin books and the documentary video produced and released as soon as he was buried, was orchestrated perfectly....

There were many reasons why Bernardin welcomed death, least of which was that his carefully crafted image as the saintly prelate, the good listener, the consensus builder, the faithful son of the Church, was rapidly dissolving.

His closest friend from his South Carolina days, Monsignor Frederick Hopwood, had been accused of abusing hundreds of boys dating back to the early 1950s, when he and Bernardin shared a residence at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Charleston, where some of the alleged abuse took place.

An attorney involved in representing some of Hopwood's victims told Roman Catholic Faithful, "Hopwood was not your ordinary pedophile. He abused hundreds of boys at the rectory at a time when Bernardin was serving, theoretically, as assistant chancellor and at Camp St. Mary's in Beaufort."...

At the time the Hopwood allegations became public in late December 1993, Bernardin was having trouble on another front. A former seminarian from the Archdiocese of Cincinnati, Steven Cook, filed a $10 million lawsuit against Bernardin and Cincinnati priest Ellis Harsham The suit accused Harsham, when he was a priest at St. Gregory seminary in Cincinnati in the mid 1970s, of numerous coercive sexual acts against him, and then delivering him to Bernardin, then archbishop of Cincinnati, for the same purposes.

Several months later, however, in February 1994, Cook dropped Bernardin from the suit, saying he couldn't trust his memory. Cook never retracted his charges; nor did he say they were inaccurate — contrary to the accepted party line that Bernardin had been exonerated, which persists to this day. Four months later, Cook's suit against Harsham was conveniently, at least for Bernardin, settled out of court. While Bernardin was allowed to remain as Archbishop of Chicago, Harsham was placed immediately on administrative leave when the lawsuit was filed; he left the priesthood a few months later.

While Bernardin went on to have a very public (and filmed) reconciliation with Cook, showing the world what a generous man he was in forgiving a man who had accused him of sexual crimes, Bernardin's lawyers were involved in hushing up another case in which seminarians in Winona, Minnesota, had accused Bernardin and three other bishops of participating in sexual/satanic rituals at the seminary. Among the facts that the plaintiffs in that case marshaled for their suit: Bernardin was frequently accompanied by Steven Cook. The settlement stemming from the lawsuit has been sealed, but details of the settlement have made their way to select individuals, including this reporter, from a bishop who received a copy of the settlement.

In the two years leading up to his death, even as he orchestrated brutal assaults against clerical sexual abuse victims of clerical sexual abuse and their parents in Chicago, one after another of Bernardin's closest clerical friends from his native Diocese of Charleston made the newspapers, all for charges of pedophilia: Father Eugene Condon, Father Justin Goodwin, Father James Robert Owens-Howard, Father Paul F.X. Seitz, in addition to continuing allegations against Hopwood.

It is the Hopwood case that, perhaps, raises the most suspicions about Bernardin.

Hopwood, ordained in June 1951 in Maryknoll, New York, began working as a priest in the Charleston Diocese in January 1952. He was incardinated into the Charleston Diocese in November 1954, and appointed assistant chancellor. Reputedly, he was Bernardin's best friend and seminary roommate.

Bernardin was ordained April 26, 1952, at St. Joseph's Church in Columbia. In 1954, he was appointed chancellor of the diocese by Bishop John Russell, who himself [was] accused of Satanism and sexual abuse by the same woman, "Agnes," who [also] accused Bernardin of sexual abuse and took all her charges to the Vatican in person. Agnes' story, and the ritual she was subjected to, was dramatized in the opening chapter of the late Malachi Martin's frightening novel of ecclesiastical intrigue, Windswept House.

According to Marion Lafong, who was sexually abused by Hopwood in the late 1950s, Bernardin and Hopwood (and the other priests named above) "were buddies." In an interview shortly after Bernardin's death, Lafong said that one of his co-plaintiffs in the lawsuit against Hopwood was sodomized in the cathedral rectory by Hopwood and another priest, though that victim didn't know who the perpetrator was because he had been blindfolded.

He also declared that in negotiations with the Archdiocese of Chicago lawyers in the efforts to settle the lawsuits without a trial, "Bernardin's name came up a large number of times," along with charges that Hopwood had presided over satanic rituals involving animals in the woods where some of his victims were abused. While Hopwood was resident at the cathedral in Charleston, he was also working at Bishop England High School and was chaplain at the Citadel.

Bernardin was named monsignor in 1959, and continued to serve the bishop as chancellor and, after 1966, as an auxiliary bishop in Atlanta, under Archbishop Paul Hallinan, his mentor who was among the most strident and aggressive "Americanists" in the U.S. hierarchy at the time.

Bernardin acquired power rapidly. As his friends back in Charleston continued buggering little boys, Bernardin used his influence, starting in 1968, as General Secretary of the U.S. Catholic Conference, to select bishops (many of whom are still ordinaries) who would, to put it charitably, condone and promote homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle and tolerate the sexual abuse of children by priests.

In December 1994, another of Bernardin's circle was accused of sexual abuse, Father Paul Seitz, then 67, pastor of Prince of Peace parish in Taylor, South Carolina. At the time charges were filed, diocesan spokeswoman Mary Jeffcoat said, the abuse happened while Seitz was stationed in Aiken County 30 years ago, in 1964.

In June 1996, another priest in Bernardin's circle of friends, Father Eugene Condon, then 66, retired from active ministry, three weeks after the 9th Circuit solicitor's office informed the diocese it was investigating Condon on charges he had sexually abused minor males and exposed them to pornography and alcohol.

In June 1995, Father Justin Goodwin, then 89, was charged with sexual abuse of minor males. Goodwin had served in the Charleston diocese, which includes all of South Carolina, since 1953. Before that he served in Washington, D.C., New York and North Carolina churches. Interestingly, he too spent time at the Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Charleston....
17 posted on 07/24/2012 9:31:35 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp

Obfuscation and guilt by association? Will repeating the same thing over and over again make it come true? IS their a formula for that written doen somewhere? You’ve provided no evidence for your allegations again.


18 posted on 07/24/2012 9:59:04 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp; wintertime; onyx; NYer; Salvation; RedMDer; woofie; wagglebee; TheOldLady; ...

I’m praying and hopeful that this is a positive beginning, not doubting there will be great reactionary lashing out and criticisms from the media and the liberal clergy and religious academics, but it must be done.

~ ~ ~

Received in email from the Cardinal Newman Society:

Two huge developments:

1) the Vatican has revoked a major university’s right to call itself “Catholic,” and

2) Pope Benedict is pressing for new action to rein in dissenting American theologians!

Sad but necessary, the Vatican Secretary of State declared that a Peruvian university may no longer call itself “Pontifical” or “Catholic,” making a forceful statement to weak Catholic colleges worldwide.

And the Holy Father told American bishops visiting Rome that “compliance” with the mandatum—a theology professor’s written pledge to teach authentic Catholic theology—is a priority for Catholic college renewal.

To help Catholic families understand this crucial development, The Cardinal Newman Society has released an exclusive and groundbreaking report:

A Mandate for Fidelity
Pope Benedict Urges Compliance with Theologians’ Mandate

We interviewed Catholic Church experts, theologians, and bishops—including Cardinal Raymond Burke, prefect of the Vatican’s top canon law court, who says that the mandatum is a public act and should not be veiled in secrecy.

In other words, Catholic colleges should not refuse to disclose which professors have the mandatum, a common practice in the United States!

Furthermore, Cardinal Burke says Catholic colleges should require the mandatum as a condition for employment as a theology professor!

These are commonsense policies that many Catholic colleges and universities refuse to implement, instead harboring radical theologians with no accountability to students or to the Church.

But as you will read, the colleges recommended in The Cardinal Newman Society’s Newman Guide are leading the charge for faithful Catholic identity and are setting an example on the mandatum.

~~~~

A Mandate for Fidelity: Pope Benedict Urges Compliance With Theologians’ Mandate

http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=04qM51k4t9Q%3d&tabid=36

(Stunning that these Catholic universities chose not to even respond to the questionnaire requesting the pertinent information: Boston College, Fordham University, Georgetown University, Loyola University Chicago, St. John’s University in New York, Saint Louis University, and the University of Notre Dame.)

These are the colleges that did, from the report:

“In June and July 2012, The Cardinal Newman Society requested and received confirmation that all theology faculty have the mandatum at Aquinas College in Tennessee, Ave Maria University, Belmont Abbey College, Benedictine College, the College of Saint Mary Magdalen, DeSales University, Franciscan University of Steubenville, John Paul the Great Catholic University, Mount St. Mary’s University, St. Gregory’s University, Thomas More College of Liberal Arts, the University of St. Thomas in Texas, and Wyoming Catholic College. At The Catholic University of America, where the theology and religious studies department is a pontifical faculty, all professors have the similar missio canonica from the Archbishop of Washington.”


19 posted on 07/24/2012 10:34:42 PM PDT by STARWISE (The overlords are in place .. we are a nation under siege .. pray, go Galt & hunker down)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp; Tax-chick; trisham
The USCCB is still repeating, every single time they address the anti-conscience "Contraception" mandate, that "This is not about contraception!"

Now I understand that this is true in a certain, limited way:

But.

Un-be-fliuppin-lievable, it IS about contraception if you want to talk about the substantive content of the thing, and frankly, it is far more important that the Church teach against contraception, than that the Church should retain its institutional liberty.

Because what is institutional liberty for, if not the freedom to teach the truth with the full expectation that Catholic people will LIVE the truth?

We had a Religious Liberty here a month ago. One of our speakers, a fine young female Evangelical lawyer with the ADF, made the point that you can't expect people to defend your "liberty" if you don't care enough to live it.

Hammer, nail.

20 posted on 07/25/2012 5:23:54 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Mrs. Don-o; trisham; Dr. Brian Kopp
... what is institutional liberty for, if not the freedom to teach the truth with the full expectation that Catholic people will LIVE the truth?

As so often happens, Mrs. Don-o nails it to the wall and sticks a smiley post-it on there for emphasis.

I've been reading this thread, though I haven't responded before now, because the adjective "diabolical" is absolutely key, in my opinion. The belief that drives the call for contraception is that God made us wrong, that He is not a loving Father who wants only our good, but a tyrant who wishes to deny us what is for our good. You'll recall that fallen Seraph - who has done so much harm to innocent ophidians over the millenia - making this point to ditzy Eve.

The Supreme Court has written "God made us wrong" into the fundamental laws of our country: the "Casey" decision said that nonprocreative sex is an absolute right, and that any means necessary to ensure it is protected by "the Constitution" as presently understood.

I'm open to argument/correction on this, but it also seems to me that this is an attack directed mainly at women. Of course, reason tells us that if women were created wrong, so were men, but it is women who become pregnant and have babies. These outcomes, defined as medical and social pathologies by our government, simply don't happen to men. I wonder if the fact that most women spend nearly their entire lives in an environment of "There's something wrong with you. You are a problem. Your existence in your natural state is an enemy to be fought againt," has anything to do with the depression, lack of self-respect, and destructive choices that are so common for women these days.

21 posted on 07/25/2012 6:08:20 AM PDT by Tax-chick (You have all been given written notice of my mid-life crisis. You have, understand?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
Then don't invite them. Choose your own chorus.

Indeed.

And for good reason.

Scandal is a sin.

No. It was the Archbishop's funeral.

Uh-huh...

These folks sang the songs the Archbishop chose to be sung,.....

Right. That's why the Cathedral has a choir. To sing. It usually does so at funerals of prominent churchmen. Telling it to stand down in favor of the "Gay Men's Chorus" is neither a neutral nor an insignificant gesture.

... else they were quite and respectful of the occassion.

You mean they didn't shout "we're here, we're queer and we're not going shopping"?? That's nice of them.

Pride parades are celebrations of open, unrepentant homos.

Yes they are.

So are organizations which are composed exclusively of homosexual men and which self-identify as "gay". Such groups are dedicated to furthering the proposition that the "gay" lifestyle is not abnormal and is worthy of our esteem. They are most certainly not dedicated to the furtherance of Catholic teaching, which is that sodomy is gravely sinful and damnable. No organization which self-identifies as "gay" accepts that proposition nor is it directed to promoting "celibacy" among those afflicted with same sex attraction. It is dedicated to promoting acceptance of same-sex attraction and ipso facto is in direct conflict with Catholic dogma.

Not all homosexual agitprop is blatant, like a gay pride parade. Some is subtle and therefore more insidious. A choir of "gay" male voices falls into the latter category, just so a "gay" theater troupe or a "gay" motorcycle club. In addition to showing an apparently reasonable and attractive side to "gay" culture, these groups also act as self-affirmation organizations, whereby the members provide morale-boosting support for each other's life-styles, as well as being a place where one can meet a potential partner.

As for your Scripture quote, you forgot the one where Jesus says....."go and sin no more." That doesn't sit well with the "gay" community. Its whole ethos is dedicated to maintaining the "gay" lifestyle, not repenting of it.

The Church is more than happy to eat with tax-collectors and sinners but when the sinners tell us that sin is not really sin, that's where the meal ends and we leave the restaurant.

22 posted on 07/25/2012 7:11:17 AM PDT by marshmallow (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
"They are most certainly not dedicated to the furtherance of Catholic teaching, which is that sodomy is gravely sinful and damnable."

Wow! Catholic teaching in a nutshell.

"... That's nice of them."

They were either respectful of the occasion, or they weren't.

"Scandal is a sin."

Scandal is in the eyes of the beholder. The Cardinal didn't see it the way you do; neither did God with His example.

"organizations which are composed exclusively of homosexual men"

The Chorus is and was always open to anyone, regardless of sexual orientation.

"insidious. A choir of "gay" male voices"

You'd think someone that was at the Mass would have complained.

"The Church is more than happy to eat with tax-collectors and sinners but when the sinners tell us that sin is not really sin, that's where the meal ends and we leave the restaurant."

What happened to your Church authority, your Magesterium and Pope? You are attempting to overrule a Cardinal! Have you been eating YIPIOS?

"As for your Scripture quote, you forgot the one where Jesus says....."go and sin no more."

I forgot nothing.

23 posted on 07/25/2012 11:21:31 AM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
They were either respectful of the occasion, or they weren't.

Oh they were. Totally. They dressed well, sang nicely, smiled at everyone and then departed the scene to continue their campaign against the Catholic Church. That's what I call "respect".

I'm sure the "Gay Men's Chorus" is well versed in the finer points of exterior decorum.

Now if only they were respectful of the Church. Not the same thing, of course. When Castro or Chavez meet the Pope, they're respectful of the "occasion". It's the Church with which they have a problem.

Scandal is in the eyes of the beholder.

Well, no.

Scandal is a word or action, evil in itself, which occasions another's spiritual ruin.

The Cardinal didn't see it the way you do;

Clearly.

neither did God with His example.

Ahhh.....an authoritative proclamation from on high.

The Chorus is and was always open to anyone, regardless of sexual orientation.

Oh....so it's not really....er....."gay"?? The name is meaningless?

Then why call it "The Gay Men's Chrous"?

You'd think someone that was at the Mass would have complained.

ROFL......plenty has been written about this little episode, believe me, including by some who were present.

What happened to your Church authority, your Magesterium and Pope? You are attempting to overrule a Cardinal! Have you been eating YIPIOS?

You're flailing.

If you knew anything about Bernardin or the Magisterium, you'd know that Bernardin expended considerable energy throughout his ministry opposing the Magisterium and his invitation to the "Gay Men's Chorus" to sing at his funeral was his final, defiant gesture. Unsurprising and entirely in keeping with his previous actions.

24 posted on 07/25/2012 12:32:49 PM PDT by marshmallow (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow; spunkets
If you knew anything about Bernardin or the Magisterium, you'd know that Bernardin expended considerable energy throughout his ministry opposing the Magisterium and his invitation to the "Gay Men's Chorus" to sing at his funeral was his final, defiant gesture.

Every orthodox Catholic I know comprehends this. Which calls into question spunky's orthodoxy and agenda, IMHO.

25 posted on 07/25/2012 1:17:48 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: marshmallow
Re: Scandal is in the eyes of the beholder.

" Well, no. Scandal is a word or action, evil in itself, which occasions another's spiritual ruin.

What I said is correct. The universal, objective definition of scandal is independent of "spiritual ruin" and depends absolutely on the prior beliefs and values of the beholder. Neither the Church nor The Harper Valley PTA has a patent on the definition of scandal.

Re: neither did God with His example.

"Ahhh.....an authoritative proclamation from on high."

Not a proclamation, an example of behavior from the Person Christian folks call Lord.

"why call it "The Gay Men's Chrous"?"

That's a gay question.

"ROFL......plenty has been written about this little episode, believe me, including by some who were present."

No kidding? Any links to those musical reviews?

"If you knew anything about Bernardin or the Magisterium, you'd know that Bernardin expended considerable energy throughout his ministry opposing the Magisterium "

Cardinal Bernardin was installed by the members of that organization, including the Pope. I believe he led the USCCB. That would mean he led them, not opposed them.

I believe he was a gentle pious man that empathized with the poor and brought the beatitudes to life. I'm sure his choice of Chorus was based on that and not defiance.

The subject of this thread is the filthy defamation of the man. No evidence that he raped a young girl at a satanic mass, was a homo, engaged in homosexulality, promoted homosexuality, or became ordained to perform satanic rituals for promises of "fantastic gay sex". Do you have any such evidence?

26 posted on 07/25/2012 4:05:52 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

“I believe he was a gentle pious man that empathized with the poor and brought the beatitudes to life....”

Mebbe.... Mebbe not. See “Windswept House” Malachi Martin...which is a”fictionalized” review of the AmChurch

The character of Cardinal Leonardine BTW...is Bernardine. And is either diabolically accurate or diabolically contrived.


27 posted on 07/25/2012 4:19:27 PM PDT by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

**Defamation of the man**

Do you have a cross to burn here?

Are you his relative?

What gives?


28 posted on 07/25/2012 4:22:22 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp
"Every orthodox Catholic I know comprehends this."

Orthodox Catholics don't believe in the Pope and they don't share many of your Roman doctrines. Cardinal Bernardin was installed by the Magisterium, including the Pope and was one of their leaders. I forgot his name et al have been ordered by his Bishop to cease using the word Catholic to describe their defamation business, a business that defames Popes also.

Either the Church's Magisterium means something, or it don't. Some apostolic succession the Church has, when a lay bunch of clown fools running a defamation business claim a higher moral authority than the Popes, Cardinals, Archbishops, Bishops and priests do in their org.

29 posted on 07/25/2012 4:25:24 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: mo
"See “Windswept House” Malachi Martin...which is a”fictionalized” review of the AmChurch"

Fiction is fiction.

"The character of Cardinal Leonardine BTW...is Bernardine. And is either diabolically accurate or diabolically contrived."

There's a simple solution:=> Got evidence?

30 posted on 07/25/2012 4:31:34 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
Re: Defamation of the man

"Are you his relative?"He is my brother.

"What gives?

The defamation program. It appears to be built on sand.

31 posted on 07/25/2012 4:35:42 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

“His last book, ‘Windswept House,’ for example, was 80 percent factual, by Malachi’s own admission to me,” Fr. Fiore said. “Many of his works were that accurate.”

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1136142/posts


32 posted on 07/25/2012 4:38:35 PM PDT by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: mo
"“His last book, ‘Windswept House,’ for example, was 80 percent factual, by Malachi’s own admission to me,” Fr. Fiore said. “Many of his works were that accurate.”"

This ain't evidence of the allegations made against Cardinal Bernardin. The statement is meaningless. Fiction is fiction regardless of whether, or not the sky was said to be blue somewhere in it.

Got evidence?

33 posted on 07/25/2012 4:44:11 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

It’s not built on sand. We have facts, and many have been posted on different threads.

I wonder if you understand how Catholics think here??

You still didn’t answer my question — perhaps you are one of Bernardin’s boys?


34 posted on 07/25/2012 4:47:28 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
"We have facts, and many have been posted on different threads."

If you had evidence, you could present it. When such filthy allegations as have been made and posted here are made, they must be accompanied by real hard evidence supporting said claims.

Do you have evidence that he raped a young girl at a satanic mass, was a homo, engaged in homosexulality, promoted homosexuality, or became ordained to perform satanic rituals for promises of "fantastic gay sex". Do you have any such evidence? If so present it!

35 posted on 07/25/2012 4:56:55 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Salvation
"I wonder if you understand how Catholics think here??"

Thought is either rational, or it's not. All else is irrelevant.

36 posted on 07/25/2012 5:03:54 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

I suspect the “evidence” (which way BTW-”for” or “against” the Cardinal) you demand is probably not available outside the confessional...but if you’re truly interested you could start with Matt Abbott’s discussion about the circle the good padre ran with and the various facts and allegations therein...none of which are particularly clerical


37 posted on 07/25/2012 5:28:32 PM PDT by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

Mark Abbott....BTW is found here...

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/abbott/060818


38 posted on 07/25/2012 5:30:35 PM PDT by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: spunkets; Salvation
"Thought is either rational, or it's not. All else is irrelevant."

Rationalism, and its close cousin modernism, are considered heresies by the Church. When one breaks down the essential difference between Catholicism and Protestantism, we see that the breakdown lies between reason derived from faith for the Catholic, and faith determined by reason for the Protestant. The Catholic believes God based on the living authority and living Voice (The Holy Spirit) He gave to those chosen to spread the Gospel. The Catholic believes that man has the capacity to comprehend the infallible Word of God by his reason, but his reason does not determine what he will and will not believe. Faith is an act of the will.

The Protestantism which puts man’s intellect and individual rational capacity above and before faith. Most Protestants will not believe what does not make sense to them. Although most Protestants will profess Sola Fide, it is not really faith in God they are living by, but only faith in themselves and their cognitive abilities. For the Catholic, faith precedes reason, for the Protestant, reason precedes faith.

Simply put, the Protestant takes God’s Written Word and attempts as best as he can to determine what it means for him, and then put his faith in what he has determined. He bases his faith off of what he reads in and into the Scriptures and determines for himself the doctrines he will believe. This is completely the opposite of Catholicism position, which simply listens to God’s voice speaking through His one and only Church, and then seeks to understand that faith by his reason.

Peace be with you

39 posted on 07/25/2012 5:41:41 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: mo
"I suspect the “evidence” (which way BTW-”for” or “against” the Cardinal) you demand is probably not available outside the confessional.

There could never be any evidence for the Cardinal, because evidence for something that never happened, or don't exist, ect... can not possibly exist. Otherwise, it is an explicit sin against your neighbor to fling filthy allegations and then claim the "evidence" is hidden, or was somehow lost. ie. "the dog ate my evidence, then he died".

"Matt Abbott’s discussion about the circle the good padre ran with...

Ah ha! Guilt by association. Selective association at that, because "the good padre" was the head and leader of the USCCB, a member appointed by and in good standing amongst the Magisterium and the Pope. That don't matter with Mr. Abbott though, since Mr. Abbott's will was not honored, YOPIOS notwithstanding. All that matters with Mr. Abbott and whats his name et al, is that Cardinal Bernardin is defamed in the most heinous way.

40 posted on 07/25/2012 6:00:40 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

2 Timothy 4:3-4,

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”


41 posted on 07/25/2012 6:29:39 PM PDT by mo (If you understand, no explanation is needed. If you don't understand, no explanation is possible.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: spunkets; mo; Salvation; marshmallow; nanetteclaret; STARWISE; wintertime; onyx; NYer; RedMDer; ...
Orthodox Catholics don't believe in the Pope and they don't share many of your Roman doctrines.

You know, I've thought there was a disconnect in this entire discussion with you. I was under the assumption you were a fellow Catholic, and were responding as such. However, no Catholic I know would refer to a Catholic poster with this sentence above, "your Roman doctrines." Further, no educated conservative Catholic would confuse "orthodox Catholics" and "Orthodox Christians."

Therefore, one must conclude you are either the most ignorant and poorly catechized Catholic on FreeRepublic, or you are not Catholic. (Feel free to clarify which here.)

Regardless, you are in no position to be lecturing well educated orthodox Catholics (i.e., Catholics who believe the teachings of their Church and obey the Magisterium, and are not heterodox) who have been fighting these culture wars within the Church for years or decades.

Cardinal Bernardin was installed by the Magisterium, including the Pope and was one of their leaders.

You seem to think being an installed bishop makes him both impeccable and infallible. That is not Catholic doctrine, even in the case of a Pope. Would you be scandalized to learn that throughout our history there have been evil gravely sinful bishops, archbishops, Cardinals and even Popes, yes, even Popes? Infallibility only protects a Pope from making errors in matters of Faith and Morals when speaking ex cathedra. It does not prevent him from sinning, or appointing bad bishops.

Do you have evidence that he raped a young girl at a satanic mass

I pinged you to the thread with that evidence:

I first heard of Agnes’ story from a friend in 1996. This friend of mine had met Agnes a few years earlier when she came to him for advice. He never gave me her name or location but only made reference to her situation because it fit into a conversation we were having regarding the Archdiocese of Chicago. In 1998, when I first learned who Agnes was, I found that she had been on RCF’s mailing list for some time. I also learned that a private investigator, as well as a lawyer from Chicago who had provided RCF with information, had met with Agnes a few years earlier in an attempt to help her find a way to bear witness to what had happened to her. This same investigator and lawyer provided RCF with information they had obtained regarding the alleged sexual activity of the priest who had abused Agnes many years earlier. That priest was the young Joseph Bernardin.

Over the past 12 years, in sworn deposition, in accounts to investigators, in affidavits submitted in support of others' cases, in direct statements to Bernardin, in phone calls and letters to Church officials, and in correspondence with Vatican officials (all of which RCF has examined), Agnes has testified to the following story:

In the fall of 1957, in Greenville, S.C., Fr, Joseph Bernardin raped 11-year-old Agnes as part of a Satanic ritual that involved, among others, Bishop John Russell of Charleston. Brought to the event by an abusive father, Agnes “was able, at first, to resist Bishop Russell physically, out of the knowledge that God had made me good, not bad as I was being told I was” (her words). As a young child, she had been victimized by a “sadist” cousin, and her identity was based upon “resisting bad things”, which included Bernardin. Bernardin then showed kindness and approval of her resistance, in order to gain her trust and get her to relax, and then he raped her. He followed the rape with a perverted use of a host, in an attempt to make Agnes swallow the guilt of the event.

In the fall of 1992, Agnes passed a polygraph examination regarding these events. She also, in early 1990, told her story to Malachi Martin, who had been recommended to her as someone who could get her information to the Vatican, which Agnes knew had sole and immediate jurisdiction over such a case. Martin wrote a novel, Windswept House, with the premise that Agnes had given him: that the Catholic hierarchy's tolerance of heresy, liturgical abuse, clerical sexual misconduct, and clerical pedophilia had one overarching explanation at root, a network of Satanists whose smoke had ascended high in the Church. Her story is greatly theatricalized in the novel, but the essential fact of ritual rape is there, as is the spiritual reality of Christ's presence in the victimized child. Thirty-four years later, Agnes went to visit Bishop Russell in a nursing home. In and out of lucidity, he agreed to testify against Bernardin if asked. He died without the opportunity to do so.

Agnes later came to know Steve Cook, and submitted an affidavit in support of his suit. Before he died, Cook told Agnes he was writing a book to tell the truth about his abuse, and he gave a different account of his lawsuit retraction than the one publicly accepted.

Someone who knew Cook earlier than Agnes is a former seminarian RCF interviewed who admitted to a four-year sexual relationship with a Catholic bishop who now heads a western diocese. This man stated that he also had forced sexual contact with Cardinal Bernardin, and that, through Bernardin, he came to know Steven Cook. This individual, interviewed in November of 1998 by RCF, claims to have received a cash settlement. RCF confirmed, through an attorney, that this seminarian did indeed receive a cash settlement.

Do you have evidence that he ... was a homo, engaged in homosexulality, promoted homosexuality

Steven Cook, the man who sued Bernardin for homosexual abuse, and a man who couldn't rub two nickles together, left a large estate estimated in the range of a cool $3 million. The out-of-court settlement was sealed, but Cook's "apology" to Cardinal Bernardin and his statement that he couldn't depend on his memories was purchased by the diocese for a seven-digit payout.

Innocent men do not make out of court settlements with their accusers, nor pay the estate of their accuser $3 million.

If that's not proof enough for you, then you're just not rational.

Given your pontifications and attacks in these threads, the fact you're obviously not even Catholic and do not understand basic Catholic principles, and that evidence that would satisfy the vast majority of objective observers does not satisfy you, indicate either you are not rational or you have an agenda.

Either way, you are not worthy of further efforts to educate and correct your misconceptions and errors, willful or otherwise.

42 posted on 07/25/2012 6:36:14 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: Natural Law
Re: Thought is either rational, or it's not. All else is irrelevant.

"Rationalism, and its close cousin modernism, are considered heresies by the Church.

The "ism" doesn't apply. Logic is machine independent, so it does not matter which mind does the rational processing. The processing is either rational, or irrational according to the laws of logic.

"The Catholic believes that man has the capacity to comprehend the infallible Word of God by his reason, but his reason does not determine what he will and will not believe. Faith is an act of the will.

A Catholic may believe this, but it has no bearing on reality. A person believes what they do by virtue of rational processing in the mind. Will is a rather etherial term used for the more accurate and precise term, decision. Something is believed, because the person has made a decision to do so and that decision requires a set of reasons, or justifications for the particular decision. Faith is simply a decision to believe based on the reason of trust in the person making the claim.

"For the Catholic, faith precedes reason, for the Protestant, reason precedes faith."

Catholic is rrelevant here. Man is made in God's Image. The above applies universally to any sentient rational being. A person does not need faith in a god, or anyone else, to hold and value the primary and dependent laws respectively: "to love they neighbor, as thyself", and "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor". Allegations require evidence, not faith. Faith applies to the attachment of th qualification sin attached to any violation of the above laws. Do you have any evidence for the filthy allegations made against the deceased Cardninal?

43 posted on 07/25/2012 6:41:24 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: spunkets; mo; mattcabbott
That don't matter with Mr. Abbott though, since Mr. Abbott's will was not honored, YOPIOS notwithstanding. All that matters with Mr. Abbott and whats his name et al, is that Cardinal Bernardin is defamed in the most heinous way.

If you're going to defame Mr. Abbott, the least you could do is ping him to the thread.

44 posted on 07/25/2012 6:42:16 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp
"The out-of-court settlement was sealed, but Cook's "apology" to Cardinal Bernardin and his statement that he couldn't depend on his memories was purchased by the diocese for a seven-digit payout. Innocent men do not make out of court settlements with their accusers, nor pay the estate of their accuser $3 million."

According to you. According to Cook, he had not the wits about him to know anything. To myself and others, it's an extortion game, delusions, act of a sociopath, or psychosis.

"no educated conservative Catholic would confuse "orthodox Catholics" and "Orthodox Christians."

The Orthodox are Catholic, regardless of your protestations.

"Regardless, you are in no position to be lecturing well educated orthodox Catholics"

The term Orthodox rightly belongs to the Orthodox Catholics that were abandoned by Rome when Rome split from the orthodox Catholics.

"You seem to think being an installed bishop makes him both impeccable and infallible."

No. It means he's a bishop in apostolic succession and is a member of the Magisterium.

Re:Do you have evidence that he raped a young girl at a satanic mass

"I pinged you to the thread with that evidence:

Your "evidence" is bizarre hearsay that passed on with the dog that ate it.

45 posted on 07/25/2012 7:07:14 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp; mattcabbott
"If you're going to defame Mr. Abbott, the least you could do is ping him to the thread. "

To bad Cardinal Bernardin can't be pinged to defend himself.

46 posted on 07/25/2012 7:10:21 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
Your "evidence" is bizarre hearsay that passed on with the dog that ate it.

An individual who testified to these events in sworn deposition, in accounts to investigators, in affidavits submitted in support of others' cases, in direct statements to Bernardin, in phone calls and letters to Church officials, and in correspondence with Vatican officials, and who passed a polygraph examination regarding these events, is in your estimation bizarre hearsay that passed on with the dog that ate it.

I've worked with victims of clerical sexual abuse, served as a victim's advocate, and I personally know several victims of clerical sexual abuse, one of whom is a close personal friend.

I know what they suffered in bringing forward their cases.

I've spoken with Stephen Brady, who interviewed the woman who testified to these events in sworn deposition, in accounts to investigators, in affidavits submitted in support of others' cases, in direct statements to Bernardin, in phone calls and letters to Church officials, and in correspondence with Vatican officials, and who passed a polygraph examination regarding these events.

Frankly, I find your characterization of her testimony to be reprehensible.

47 posted on 07/25/2012 7:21:52 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
What I said is correct. The universal, objective definition of scandal is independent of "spiritual ruin" and depends absolutely on the prior beliefs and values of the beholder. Neither the Church nor The Harper Valley PTA has a patent on the definition of scandal.

Nor any sin for that matter, right? It's all dependent on the "prior beliefs and values of the beholder", isn't it? That's the essence of moral relativism, I believe.

For lurkers, The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines scandal as:

...an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor's tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

Aquinas defined scandal in exactly the words I gave you: word or action evil in itself, which occasions another's spiritual ruin.

So enjoy your self-sourced definition of scandal. The Catholic Church and Aquinas work for me.

Cardinal Bernardin was installed by the members of that organization, including the Pope. I believe he led the USCCB. That would mean he led them, not opposed them.

Uh-huh. And Jesus called Judas to be one of the twelve.

Well?

I believe he was a gentle pious man that empathized with the poor and brought the beatitudes to life.

I guess one could say the same about someone like Jimmy Carter or Bill Clinton. Lots of people already do.

I think a little history lesson is in order.

Bernardin did untold damage to the Catholic cause and there is no better example than his "seamless garment" theology regarding life issues. This theological argument claimed that we needed a wide-reaching life ethic which included not only the issue of abortion but also the issues of warfare, capital punishment, healthcare, and various other things. Sounds good, doesn't it? The liberals certainly thought so and immediately fell in love with it. However, the problem was, it made abortion just one of a whole parcel of life issues and not necessarily the most important one. This is classic Bernardin; appearing to be supporting something while in fact, undermining it.

If one wishes to trace the origin of the current Catholic political malaise which leads large numbers of Catholics to support and vote for anti-life abortion promoters, Bernardin's "seamless garment" theology can be found lurking at the root of much of it. This thinking says that when weighing one's vote, one can in good conscience vote for an abortion supporter, providing he or she is "pro-life" on other so-called "life issues", such as health care, capital punishment, etc. because after all, abortion is not the only life issue.

Of course, if there is no right to life, then there is going to be no right to healthcare or anything else but that is lost on most of the sheep who dutifully vote for Obama and Pelosi et al.

Then there's Bernardin's treatment of homosexual ministry. Bernardin became archbishop of Chicago in 1982 and for 6 years he was happy to support the organization Dignity which was was given use of a parish church for its liturgies. Dignity is not an organization which promotes chastity among those afflicted with same sex-attraction disorder. On the contrary, it affirms and supports gays in their lifestyle. This was too much for Rome and it eventually demanded that something be done. Bernardin complied and in 1988 demanded that Dignity issue a statement affirming Catholic teaching on sexuality. They refused and as result, were given the boot.

Sounds good, right?

Not quite. Bernardin then set up an organization named AGLO(Archdiocese Gay and Lesbian Outreach) to replace it. Read their ambiguous mission statement. This again was classic Bernardin; appear to be supporting something while working to undermine it.

Are we making progress?

Then there's the issue of the Mundelein seminary where the archdiocese trains its priests. Michael Rose in his book Goodbye Good Men examined the issue of homosexuality in seminaries and based on interviews with former seminarians concluded that this seminary under Bernardin was one of a group of seminaries which became known as the "pink palaces"; hotbeds of homosexuality where orthodox Catholic men were made to feel unwelcome. Rose quotes a former Mundelein seminarian, Joseph Kellenyi, as saying: "The issue was never one of my suitability for ordination. Rather it was that the gay clique had been given veto power over who got ordained."

Do I need to go on?

In light of these things and many others, it's absolutely no surprise that "The Gay Men's Chorus" sang at his funeral. Why a group of openly gay men? Why not a group of school children or a group of war veterans or a group of disabled or handicapped people?

"Gay men"??

As they say on that sports program......."C'mon man!!"

The subject of this thread is the filthy defamation of the man. No evidence that he raped a young girl at a satanic mass, was a homo, engaged in homosexulality, promoted homosexuality, or became ordained to perform satanic rituals for promises of "fantastic gay sex". Do you have any such evidence?

I never made those claims. My initial intervention on this thread, to which you objected, was directed at his selection of openly gay men to sing at his funeral which was and still is a scandal.

48 posted on 07/25/2012 7:30:13 PM PDT by marshmallow (.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Dr. Brian Kopp
"An individual who testified to these events in sworn deposition, in accounts to investigators, in affidavits submitted in support of others' cases, in direct statements to Bernardin, in phone calls and letters to Church officials, and in correspondence with Vatican officials, and who passed a polygraph examination regarding these events, is in your estimation "

This is all hearsay cut out of your previous posts. The contents and particulars are still bizarre hearsay and no relevant authorities found it credible.

"I've spoken with Stephen Brady, who interviewed the woman who testified...

Hearsay... Bizarre hearsay.

"Frankly, I find your characterization of her testimony to be reprehensible.

Reprehensible is relative to ones values. Accusations based on bizarre hearsay is bearing false witness against your neighbor.

49 posted on 07/25/2012 7:56:27 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
"The "ism" doesn't apply."

I commented on rationalism which is the product of the "rational" approach to Christianity that was proffered. The product of logic is scholasticism which reached its apex in St. Thomas Aquinas. Logic as St. Thomas demonstrated, proves Catholic doctrine.

"Reason is used in theology not to prove the truths of faith, which are accepted on the authority of God, but to defend, explain, and develop the doctrines revealed." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Answer 8.

Peace be with you

50 posted on 07/25/2012 8:24:36 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-57 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson